Re: [Bug-gnubg] Look at this game!

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Re: [Bug-gnubg] Look at this game!

From:	Joseph Heled
Subject:	Re: [Bug-gnubg] Look at this game!
Date:	Sun, 13 Jul 2003 10:56:26 +1200
User-agent:	Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624

I understand your frustration. I share it fully - only I live with itfor more that a year now, so I don't get upset that easily.

Let me try to explain why it is hard to fix. This position is part of aclass of positions which the net totally "misunderstands". totally heremeans the evaluation results are random garbage. So, not only 0,1,2 ...ply evaluations useless, even a rollout is useless.

Assume we want to teach the net to handle this position - where wouldthe data come from?

This assumes that given the right data the net *can* learn it. This isby no means certain. We might need a new type of net, with the usualissues this brings (specifications, inputs, increased size, ...)

Why does GNUbg has this problem and other bots don't? I don't know.Perhaps they do (for other positions). Perhaps it is the strength of thenet that leads to it's downfall. To get such a strong net, we use 50additional inputs, and most of them don't make sense for this specifictype of position. A net with a more basic notions might be better atthis, and rely on higher plys to cover up the difference. That is why Iam *very* curios to compare the lowest levels - GNUbg 0ply and Snowie1ply. Would someone with a Dueler and Snowie4 care to do that?


-Joseph

Øystein Johansen wrote:

Hi,

A friend of mine just mailed me this game by GGraccoon. (Game 5 in thematch)


Some things to note:

- The error in move 9 looks a bit wierd. It's a beginners error by aworld class neural net.

- Move 12 is also a bit wierd.

Should this two moves (that's their resulting positions) be added to thetraining database? Joseph?


Now over to the CRASHED net:

As a human I will say move 29 is bad played 13/10 must be better sinceit makes more covering numbers. 2-ply gets this right, so I don't worrymuch about this error.

About move 35. Can some good player reading this tell us if it's rightor not to play 3/1 in move 35? Neil? And what about move 41? Isn't itright to hit with the five?


Now look at move 49? 2-ply says 17/9 which looks much better to me.

The rest of the game looks like a position type where the net is totallyuntrained, and it looks like it's making random moves.

Should we take a retrain of the crashed net? I'm offering cycles forretraining of crashed net or improving holding games.


-Øystei
n


------------------------------------------------------------------------

9 point match

Game 1
Eventide,1811 : 0               GGraccoon,1896 : 0
  1) 63: 24/18 18/15             41: 13/9 24/23
  2) 54: 24/20 20/15             61: 13/7 6/5
  3) 52: 13/8 13/11              61: 13/7 6/5
  4) 62: 15/9 11/9               53: 23/18 13/10*
  5) 65:                          Doubles => 2
  6)  Takes                      43: 13/9 18/15
  7) 63: 25/22 13/7              32: 15/13 13/10
  8) 51: 13/8 8/7                32: 24/21 8/6
  9) 52: 9/4* 6/4                31: 25/22 6/5
10) 32: 8/5 5/3*                22: 25/23 7/5 5/3* 5/3
11) 31: 25/24 6/3               33: 23/20 10/7 10/7 6/3
12) 42: 9/5* 7/5                62: 25/23 7/1*
13)  Doubles => 4                Takes
14) 31: 25/24* 24/21            65:
15) 32: 7/4 4/2*                43:
16) 63: 8/2 8/5                 64:
17) 31: 8/5 5/4                 53:
18) 62: 21/15 13/11             41: 25/24
19) 33: 11/8 8/5 5/2 4/1*       43:
20) 41: 15/11 2/1               66:
21) 21: 11/9 9/8                66:
22) 11: 8/7 7/6 5/4 4/3         66:
23) 53: 6/1 6/3                 66:
24) 21: 3/1 1/0                 66:
25) 51: 5/0 5/4                 64:
26) 61: 6/0 1/0                 21:
27) 62: 6/0 4/2                 32:
28) 41: 4/0 4/3                 43: 25/21
29) 42: 3/0 3/1                 65: 25/19 21/16
30) 63: 3/0 3/0                 41: 19/15 16/15
31) 21: 2/0 1/0                 41: 15/11 15/14
32) 65: 2/0 2/0                 43: 14/10 11/8
33) 44: 1/0 1/0
      Wins 8 points

Game 2
Eventide,1811 : 8               GGraccoon,1896 : 0
  1)                             51: 13/8 24/23
  2) 54: 13/8 24/20              41: 24/20 6/5*
  3) 62: 25/23 24/18             44: 13/9 9/5 6/2* 6/2
  4) 21: 25/24 24/22             42: 13/9 9/7*
  5) 31: 25/22 6/5*              63: 25/22 22/16
  6) 61: 13/7 6/5                51: 23/18* 8/7
  7) 66:                         62: 16/10 18/16
  8) 61: 25/24 13/7              42: 16/14 14/10
  9) 42: 8/4 6/4                 22: 13/11 13/11 6/4 6/4
10) 44: 13/9 13/9 9/5 8/4       42: 10/6 8/6
11) 44: 9/5 8/4 5/1 5/1         62: 11/5 10/8
12) 61: 8/2 4/3                 61: 11/5 5/4
13) 63: 7/1 6/3                 43: 5/1* 4/1
14) 62:                         43: 8/4 8/5
15) 42:                         62: 7/1 8/6
16) 62:                         52: 7/2 2/0
17) 62:                         44: 6/2 6/2 6/2 5/1
18) 61: 25/19 19/18             22: 4/2 2/0 2/0 2/0
19) 51: 18/13 13/12             65: 5/0 5/0
20) 21: 4/2 12/11               42: 4/0 4/2
21) 54: 22/17 22/18             21: 2/0 1/0
22) 43: 17/13 18/15             53: 2/0 2/0
23) 66: 15/9 13/7 11/5 9/3      66: 2/0 1/0 1/0 1/0
                                  Wins 2 points

Game 3
Eventide,1811 : 8               GGraccoon,1896 : 2
  1)                             31: 8/5 6/5
  2) 61: 13/7 8/7                 Doubles => 2
  3)  Takes                      42: 8/4 6/4
  4) 21: 13/11 11/10             52: 13/8 24/22
  5) 33: 8/5 8/5 6/3* 6/3        43: 25/21 24/21
  6) 43: 6/2 13/10               42: 13/9 13/11
  7) 21: 7/5 7/6                 62: 13/7 9/7
  8) 43: 6/2 5/2                 41: 13/9 11/10
  9) 53: 13/8 8/5                51: 21/16 10/9
10) 11: 24/23 23/22 10/9* 5/4*  53:
11) 63: 13/7 7/4                62:
12) 43: 10/6 9/6                63:
13) 65: 6/1                     22:
14) 64: 6/2                     63:
15) 32: 6/3 24/22               31: 25/24*
16) 55:                         65: 25/19* 6/1
17) 51: 25/24*                  54:
18) 42: 25/23 5/1*              52: 25/20*
19) 42: 25/23                   53: 25/20 20/17
20) 61: 24/23                   31: 17/14 14/13
21) 32: 4/1 4/2                 63: 13/7 7/4
22) 42: 3/1                     55: 20/15 19/14 15/10 10/5
23) 51: 23/22                   62: 14/8 8/6
24) 62: 3/1                     53: 9/4 4/1
25) 62: 22/16* 3/1              21:
26) 11: 16/15 15/14 14/13 13/12 42: 25/21 21/19
27) 21: 12/10 10/9              54: 6/1 8/4
28) 64: 23/17* 9/5              63: 25/22 19/13
29) 43: 5/1 17/14               33: 22/19 19/16 7/4 5/2*
30) 53: 25/22 14/9*             21:
31) 41: 22/18* 18/17            41: 25/21
32) 21: 17/15 15/14             21:
33) 21: 14/12* 12/11            43: 25/21 25/22
34) 52: 9/7 7/2                 21: 4/2 21/20
35) 52: 11/6 6/4*               41: 25/21* 21/20
36) 31: 25/22 2/1               61: 20/14 14/13
37) 64: 22/16 16/12*            52: 25/20 4/2
38) 61: 12/6 2/1                41: 22/18 20/19*
39) 21:                         62: 19/13 18/16
40) 41:                         52: 20/15 16/14
41) 11:                         42: 15/11 14/12
42) 32: 25/22                   21: 11/9 9/8
43) 31: 2/1                     65: 12/6 13/8
44) 42: 22/18 18/16             41: 6/2 2/1
45) 51: 16/11 11/10             33: 8/5 8/5 5/2 5/2
46) 21: 10/8 8/7                32: 4/1 2/0
47) 54: 22/17 17/13             52: 6/1 6/4
48) 64: 13/7 7/3                61: 5/0 5/4
49) 31: 22/19 7/6               42: 4/0 2/0
50) 64: 19/13 13/9              64: 4/0 4/0
51) 64: 9/5 6/0                 41: 4/0 2/1
52) 55: 5/0 3/0 2/0 2/0         31: 2/0 1/0
53) 65: 2/0 1/0                 44: 2/0 1/0 1/0 1/0
54) 62: 1/0 1/0                 22: 1/0 1/0
                                  Wins 2 points

Game 4
Eventide,1811 : 8               GGraccoon,1896 : 4
  1)                             31: 8/5 6/5
  2) 31: 8/5 6/5                  Doubles => 2
  3)  Takes                      66: 24/18 24/18 13/7 13/7
  4) 61: 8/2 6/5                 42: 8/4 6/4
  5) 33: 13/10 13/10 8/5 5/2     53: 8/3 6/3
  6) 54: 13/8 8/4                51: 13/8 8/7
  7) 64: 10/4 10/6               32: 13/10 13/11
  8) 54: 6/1 5/1                 53: 10/5 11/8
  9) 31: 6/3 3/2                 53: 7/2 5/2
10) 54: 13/8 8/4                21: 8/6 6/5
11) 52: 13/8 8/6                21: 18/16 18/17
12) 41: 6/2 4/3                 51: 16/11 5/4
13) 32: 6/3 6/4                 51: 11/6 17/16
14) 54: 5/1                     63: 16/10 10/7
15) 65:                         62: 7/5
16) 31: 5/2 4/3                 32: 7/4 7/5
17) 33: 4/1 4/1                 65: 6/0 5/0
18) 51: 2/1                     44: 4/0 4/0 4/0 4/0
19) 53: 24/21 21/16             55: 6/1* 6/1 5/0 5/0
20) 54: 25/20* 20/16            31:
21) 21: 16/14 16/15             41: 25/21 21/20
22) 62: 14/8 8/6                64: 20/14 14/10*
23) 51: 25/20 6/5               44: 10/6 6/2 3/0 3/0
24) 64: 20/14 14/10             52: 2/0 2/0
25) 31: 10/7 7/6                63: 2/0 1/0
26) 65: 6/0 5/0                 22: 1/0
                                  Wins 2 points

Game 5
Eventide,1811 : 8               GGraccoon,1896 : 6
  1) 42: 8/4 6/4                  Doubles => 2
  2)  Takes                      41: 13/9 24/23
  3) 53: 24/21 21/16*            52: 25/20 24/22
  4) 43: 24/20 16/13             52: 13/8 22/20
  5) 32: 20/18 18/15             64: 20/14 14/10*
  6) 54: 25/21 13/8              64: 10/4* 8/4
  7) 62: 25/23 8/2*              54: 25/20 6/2*
  8) 31: 25/24 6/3               54: 13/8 6/2
  9) 52: 13/8 8/6                65: 20/14 14/9
10) 41: 6/2 6/5*                64:
11) 21: 5/3 8/7                 61: 25/24 24/18*
12) 31: 25/22 8/7*              53: 25/20 6/3*
13) 32: 25/22* 7/5*             64:
14) 51: 13/8 8/7                11: 25/24 25/24 4/3* 4/3
15) 61: 25/24 13/7              11: 8/7 8/7 8/7 7/6
16) 62: 13/7 7/5                32: 8/5 7/5
17) 63: 24/18* 18/15            54:
18) 53: 24/21 21/16*            33:
19) 41: 13/9 16/15              43:
20) 62: 15/9 15/13              64:
21) 44: 9/5 9/5 7/3 7/3         22:
22) 31: 13/10 5/4               53:
23) 44: 10/6 6/2 6/2 6/2        42:
24) 64: 5/0 4/0                 42:
25) 61: 5/0 5/4                 11: 25/24 25/24 6/5 5/4
26) 44: 4/0 4/0 4/0 3/0         42: 24/20 13/11
27) 31: 3/0 3/2                 62: 24/18 24/22*
28) 31: 25/24 24/21*            55: 25/20 22/17 20/15 11/6
29) 22:                         32: 15/12 6/4*
30) 44: 25/21* 21/17 17/13* 13/9 62: 25/19
31) 52: 9/7* 7/2                22:
32) 32: 2/0 2/0                 33: 25/22 25/22 22/19 20/17
33) 32: 2/0 2/0                 42: 19/15 19/17
34) 31: 2/0 2/1*                52: 25/23* 17/12
35) 63:                         32: 12/9 3/1
36) 22:                         65: 22/16 9/4
37) 31: 25/22* 22/21*           31: 25/22 25/24*
38) 66:                         11: 23/22 22/21 22/21 15/14
39) 33: 25/22 21/18 18/15 15/12* 54: 25/20 17/13*
40) 62:                         62: 20/14 17/15
41) 51: 25/24* 22/17            53: 25/22 21/16
42) 33: 24/21 21/18 18/15 15/12* 64: 25/21 14/8*
43) 43: 25/22 12/8              42: 21/17* 22/20
44) 53: 25/22 22/17*            42: 25/23 21/17
45) 62: 22/16 16/14             31: 15/12 12/11*
46) 53: 25/22 17/12             42: 17/13* 11/9
47) 54: 25/21 21/16*            41: 25/24 13/9*
48) 31: 25/22 22/21             42: 23/19 19/17
49) 11: 22/21                   62: 20/14 5/3
50) 22:                         52: 24/19 19/17
51) 52: 21/16* 16/14            65: 25/19 16/11*
52) 31: 25/22* 21/20*           11: 25/24 25/24 6/5* 2/1
53) 61: 25/19* 19/18            33: 25/22 17/14 17/14 17/14
54) 63: 18/12 12/9*             21: 25/23 22/21
55) 51: 9/4* 4/3                43: 25/22* 22/18
56) 52: 25/20* 20/18            54: 25/21 19/14
57) 62: 22/16 16/14*            31: 25/22 18/17
58) 54: 14/9 9/5                55: 24/19 19/14 17/12 12/7*
59) 53: 25/20 5/2*              32: 25/23* 23/20
60) 65: 25/19 19/14             54: 20/15 15/11*
61) 11: 25/24* 24/23* 23/22 22/21 41: 25/21 25/24
62) 52: 21/16 16/14*            42: 25/23 21/17
63) 41: 14/10 20/19             62: 23/17 17/15*
64) 62: 25/19 19/17             54: 17/12 12/8*
65) 55: 25/20 19/14 14/9 9/4*   32: 25/23 24/21*
66) 54: 25/21 20/15             21: 8/6 15/14
67) 21: 21/19* 19/18*           53: 25/20 25/22
68) 43: 18/14 15/12             31: 22/19 14/13*
69) 63: 25/19 19/16             44: 22/18 20/16 18/14 13/9*
70) 65: 25/19 19/14             54: 24/19 24/20
71) 64: 14/8 8/4*               64: 25/21* 20/14
72) 41: 25/24 14/10             31: 23/20 16/15*
73) 42: 25/21 24/22             65: 20/14 21/16
74) 31: 22/19 21/20             54: 15/10 9/5*
75) 31: 25/24 19/16             61: 10/9* 9/3
76) 42: 25/21 24/22*            32: 25/22 16/14
77) 66: 22/16 21/15 16/10 10/4  65: 14/8 14/9
78) 31: 4/1 15/14               53: 22/17 14/11*
79) 62: 25/19 19/17*            66: 25/19 19/13 14/8* 9/3
80) 53: 25/20* 20/17*           53: 25/20 25/22
81) 42: 17/13                   62: 14/12* 12/6
82) 43: 25/21 21/18             53: 22/17 19/16
83) 32: 18/15 15/13             43: 16/12* 20/17
84) 65: 25/19* 19/14*           51: 25/20 25/24*
85) 63: 25/22* 22/16            52: 25/20 13/11*
86) 63: 25/19 16/13*            33: 25/22 24/21 20/17 17/14
87) 33: 13/10 10/7 7/4* 4/1     52: 25/23 11/6*
88) 43: 25/21 21/18             51: 6/1 14/13
89) 53: 18/13 13/10             66: 22/16 14/8 13/7 8/2
90) 32: 10/7 7/5*               61: 25/24* 19/13
91) 51: 25/24* 24/19            65: 25/20* 20/14
92) 54: 25/21 19/14             63: 24/18 7/4*
93) 43: 25/21* 21/18            64: 25/21 13/7*
94) 64: 25/19 14/10             53: 23/18 18/15*
95) 43: 25/21 21/18*            11: 25/24 24/23 23/22 15/14
96) 44: 18/14 14/10 10/6 6/2    11: 14/13 13/12 12/11 2/1
97) 31: 19/16 2/1               66: 21/15 15/9* 11/5 9/3
98) 63: 25/19 19/16             53: 14/9* 9/6
99) 21: 25/23 23/22*            41: 25/24* 18/14
100) 53: 25/20* 22/19*           41: 25/21 25/24
101) 64: 20/14 19/15             63: 17/11* 17/14
102) 62: 25/23 15/9*             62: 25/23 22/16*
103) 32: 25/22 22/20             32: 17/14 16/14
104) 21: 20/18 23/22             44: 23/19 19/15 15/11 11/7*
105) 54: 25/20 22/18*            32: 25/22 22/20
106) 43: 18/14* 20/17            55: 25/20 21/16 20/15 16/11*
107) 62: 25/19 17/15             53: 15/10* 20/17
108) 54: 25/20 19/15*            51: 25/20 11/10*
109) 33: 25/22 22/19 20/17 17/14 55: 24/19 24/19 19/14 10/5
110) 31: 14/13 13/10             42: 19/15* 20/18
111) 64: 25/19 19/15             65: 18/12 15/10*
112) 31: 25/24* 24/21            63: 25/22 12/6*
113) 31: 25/22 21/20*            65: 25/19 10/5*
114) 62: 25/19* 22/20*           43: 25/21 25/22
115) 54: 20/15 19/15             52: 22/17 19/17
116) 52: 15/10 15/13             32: 17/15* 15/12*
117) 61: 25/19 25/24             53: 22/17 12/9
118) 43: 19/16* 16/12            21: 25/23 14/13*
119) 51: 25/20 20/19             44: 23/19 19/15 15/11 13/9
120) 54: 19/14* 14/10            32: 25/22 17/15*
121) 42: 25/21 24/22             51: 22/17 15/14
122) 43: 22/18 21/18             31: 9/6 6/5
123) 64: 18/12 18/14             43: 17/13* 5/2
124) 52: 25/23* 14/9             52: 25/23 21/16*
125) 41: 25/21 21/20             63: 23/17 17/14
126) 61: 23/17 20/19             66: 16/10 14/8* 13/7 10/4
127) 11: 25/24 19/18* 18/17* 17/16 44: 25/21 25/21 17/13 13/9*
128) 32: 25/23 24/21*            63: 25/19 17/14
129) 33: 23/20 21/18 20/17 18/15 53: 21/16 14/11
130) 21: 17/16* 16/14*           33: 25/22 25/22 16/13 13/10*
131) 62: 25/19 14/12             31: 19/16 14/13*
132) 32: 25/22 22/20             65: 13/7 10/5*
133) 54: 25/20* 20/16            52: 25/23 14/9*
134) 64: 25/19 19/15             65: 16/10* 23/18
135) 52: 25/23 19/14             42: 18/14 7/5
136) 22: 23/21 21/19 19/17 17/15* 54: 25/20 14/10*
137) 42: 25/21 14/12             33: 22/19 19/16 16/13* 9/6
138) 42: 25/21 21/19*            51: 25/20 20/19
139) 31: 21/20* 20/17            32: 25/22 10/8*
140) 65: 25/19 19/14             61: 22/16 13/12
141) 61: 19/13* 14/13            31: 25/22 8/7
142) 32: 13/10 10/8              63: 7/1 20/17*
143) 43: 25/22 13/9*             63: 25/19 19/16*
144) 43: 25/21 21/18             41: 19/15 15/14
145) 54: 18/13 13/9*             63: 25/19 19/16*
146) 64: 25/19 22/18             42: 17/13 13/11
147) 42: 18/14* 14/12            21: 25/23 14/13*
148) 53: 25/20 20/17             32: 13/10 10/8*
149) 53: 25/20 20/17*            53: 25/20 20/17
150) 64: 19/13 17/13             63: 22/16 17/14
151) 63: 13/7 7/4*               41: 25/21* 16/15
152) 43: 25/21 13/10*            44: 25/21 23/19 21/17 19/15*
153) 63: 25/19 21/18             41: 22/18 15/14
154) 63: 18/12 12/9*             63: 25/19 19/16*
155) 44: 25/21 21/17 17/13 13/9* 65: 25/19 21/16*
156) 64: 25/19 19/15             11: 14/13 13/12 12/11 11/10*
157) 32: 25/23 19/16             21: 16/14 10/9*
158) 44: 25/21 21/17 17/13 13/9  54: 9/4 14/10
159) 64: 9/3 23/19               61: 14/8 14/13
160) 55: 19/14 14/9 9/4 4/0      22: 19/17 18/16 17/15 17/15
161) 61: 3/0
      Wins 1 point and the match



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