Re: MinGW GLib

[Tom Tromey]

>>>>> "Soren" == Soren A <address@hidden> writes:

Soren> IOW, the way Automake is designed is to make keeping a very
Soren> complex package's dependencies tracked so that it can be
Soren> smarter than the developer -- so that if the developer (package
Soren> author / maintainer) forgets to update something by running the
Soren> appropriate Autotool command, the Makefile will cause it to
Soren> happen for him/her. This means nests inside nests inside nests
Soren> of recursive interdependency, a hideous logical mess to try to
Soren> mentally untangle and the primary thing that makes standard
Soren> Automake-generated Makefiles unreadable by humans.

First, the maintainer can disable these update features.  Many
maintainers do.

Second, this part of the generated Makefile is pretty small.  I
disagree that this part is really that hideous, or unreadable.  Other
parts are less readable, for instance the way automake generates lots
of intermediate targets which have no purpose but to simplify
automake's implementation (or perhaps simplify some old
implementation, and which now are truly useless).

Soren> IMHO this is an error of Greek-Epic proportions on the part of
Soren> the Automake author, a deranged distortion of the Virtue of
Soren> Hubris

Automake Rex.

Soren> A system that tries to relieve the developer to THAT degree, of
Soren> ordinary vigilance and concentration on his/her task, is IMO a
Soren> major mistake and something to be regarded with deep healthy
Soren> skepticism.

It would help if you could be specific.  Sometimes I've erred in
making errors of things that perhaps should go unnoticed.  But the
situation isn't nearly as clear and simple as you try to make it.  For
one thing, giving fewer errors means more developer time spent reading
automake's output.

Soren> Nothing about the GNU documentation for Autotools claims that
Soren> you *have to* use Automake at all. In principle it is perfectly
Soren> possible to use Autoconf, and even Libtool, without using
Soren> Automake.

Not only in principle.  Many packages exist which do this.  Emacs.
gcc.  gdb.  binutils.  Etc.

Soren> Attention is relative and comes as cumulative impact of many
Soren> instances of complaints as well as response to single-authored
Soren> instances of cogent critique.

...which this isn't.  Cogency implies persuasiveness.  Flamage is,
well, merely irritating.  Or, to put it another way, there's nothing
in your message that either induces me, or even provides me enough
information, to make any specific modification to automake.  (Though I
will immediately start removing all the hideousness, not to mention
the various influences of Agamemnon.)

>> I am certain that if somebody would create an elegant, working,
>> unified cross-platform replacement for auto*+libtool+make, written in
>> *one* language of choice (preferrably some Lisp variant, or Perl,
>> instead of the current mixture of C, /bin/sh, m4, and Perl), many
>> software writers would embrace it.

For all we know one of the automake maintainers is already working on
one.

:-)

Tom