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Re: Qoth Q3 2024 & on aarch64-gnu


From: Sergey Bugaev
Subject: Re: Qoth Q3 2024 & on aarch64-gnu
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 17:47:19 +0300

On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 4:53 AM <jbranso@dismail.de> wrote:
> I'm game to try! How would I go about setting up a vm AArch64 image that
>
> runs the Hurd?

It's not much different from building a Hurd image for another
architecture (i686 or x86_64), other than having to use some unmerged
branches.

You should start by getting familiar with bootstrapping a
cross-toolchain and cross-building a Hurd image for i686-gnu, and then
try it with aarch64-gnu. I've previously posted my own little guide at
[0] (but note that you need way more recent binutils/gcc); Flavio's
"cross-hurd" project [1] is also a very useful reference. There's some
info in the wiki [2] too.

[0]: https://mail.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-hurd/2023-01/msg00132.html
[1]: https://github.com/flavioc/cross-hurd
[2]: https://darnassus.sceen.net/~hurd-web/toolchain/cross-gnu/

Also I would be glad to help you with more specific guidance, see below.

> I actually saw this in the irc log that made me ponder that porting
>
> AArch64 is still quite an involved task:
>
>
> <azert> I’ve read the email from solid_black. I remembered how I hoped to help
>
> him with gnumach on arm64 \[16:23\]
>
>
> <azert> Thing is that we made progress, but it felt a bit like finishing the
>
> job would have required a total higher lever of effort, let’s say an
>
> order of magnitude more \[16:24\]

Well, there's a saying that software is never done. Have we "finished"
GNU/Hurd on x86_64? On x86?

Of course Hurd on AArch64 will never have the same number of
features/drivers as say Linux does. But it should be very possible to
get many basic things (serial/console, interrupts/timers, perhaps
GPU/display, flash memory, networking) working for common hardware,
especially if we focus on the hardware that specific boards have. It
could be QEMU's "virt", Raspberry Pi, or whichever boards we the Hurd
community are interested in supporting.

> It would be pretty cool to run Debian GNU/Hurd on the MNT reform or a librem 
> 5.
>
> If we were to fundraise and hire some developers for a "complete" Debian 
> GNU/Hurd AArch64 port,
>
> so that it would run on the MNT reform and/or a librem 5 and/or some other 
> Open
>
> hardware-y AArch64 device that I do not know of...how much would we need to
>
> raise to pay for it? How many developers would we need to hire?

I don't think fundraising for Hurd development is realistic (but what
do I know, I might be wrong).

On the other hand, I imagine if you phrase things the right way, and
e.g. tomorrow Phoronix posts an article titled "GNU/Hurd keeps making
progress in 2024, looks for Rust and ARM driver hackers", some people
might get interested enough to join. Then again, we use plain text
mailing lists and IRC, so even if somebody does get interested, they
will likely get dis-interested before they figure out how to ask the
first question.

> Would it be much cheaper for a complete Debian Hurd AArch64 that one would
>
> run in qemu? It would be cool to start a bbuild box for AArch64.

Yes, QEMU "virt" is a relatively simple and attractive board to
target. And it's not using uncommon/obscure hardware either, it's a
PL011 serial, GIC for interrupts, PSCI for rebooting/suspending,
various virtio devices. Supporting virtio devices would directly
benefit x86 experience, and the other hardware is common/standard in
physical ARM boards too.

> What hardware board currently runs the Hurd?
>
> It would be nice to document the device that runs the Hurd, for those
>
> who want to try to test it and/or help.

azert had something named "Olimex A64 OLinuXino" I believe. But we
only got Mach with a basic userland hello world running on it, not the
Hurd; the Hurd was on QEMu virt.

> If we were to organize a GNU/Hurd hackathon (which would be awesome)

That would be awesome indeed :)

> I would need a lot of help,
>
> setting up a development environment. I would ask lots of questions about
>
> workflows.

Please do! I can't of course speak for others, but I would be glad to
guide you through setting things up. Catch me on IRC, or shoot me an
email, or we could do a call where you try to set things up and I help
you figure it out.

I'm actually liking that as an idea for what to do a call (&
recording) about. What do you think?

> I really don't understand git super well or how to use it.
>
> I have never submitted any code to the Hurd project.

Surely I've seen you post many patches to the wiki? So you already
know a bunch about using Git and submitting patches.

Sergey



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