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Re: Some suggestions and bug report

From: Vincent Belaïche
Subject: Re: Some suggestions and bug report
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 22:57:54 +0100
User-agent: Thunderbird (Windows/20090812)

Dear Karl,

Thank-you for your kind answers and your valuable suggestions. I have received no email on nov 28. Maybe there was some issue with my email client on that day. Thank you for forwarding your answer.

I agree that a comment is just fine to help the inter-lingual maintenance, but my need for displaynode is not just a matter of displaying, actually what I would like is that when you browse an HTML help file like this:


then you can easily hack the URL by replacing fr by en to get the help in English:


This kind of convention is quite often used, and I have observed that on many Web pages the organisation of the page tree is exactly the same accross languages That is to say I would have a Texinfo file to generate all the help in English and one all the help in French (or other languages) and they should both generate the same tree of files.

Maybe a way to remain compatible with the info file format would be that if a node name is like that `[[Foo][Bar]]' then:

- the makinfo/Texi2html compiler checks that
   - There is no node named `Bar'
   - There is node named `[[Toto][Bar]]'
- within the info file, [[Foo][Bar]]' is used as the node name, business as usual.
- the info viewer would diplay only `Bar' wherever `[[Foo][Bar]]' appears,
- Foo is used as a file name for HTML multifile generation, so that Bar can differ from - both `info:(my manual) Foo' and `info:(my manual)[[Foo][Bar]]' are both valid info URL for the same node [[Foo][Bar]]

So in the case of jPicEdt manual I would have in the English version:

  @node Editing commands

And in the French version:

  @node [[Editing commands][Commandes d'édition]]

Or maybe it would be better if I would have in the English manual:

  @node [[edtngcmd][Editing commands]]

And in the French version:

  @node [[edtngcmd][Commandes d'édition]]

in this case the info node HTML page would be edtcmd.html.

Note that the [[Address][Text]] notation is already used in Org, so I supposed it would not be very shocking to other emacs users.


Concerning the use of texi2html and the two frame thing, Patrice has explained this to me.

Thanks again for your kind support,


Karl Berry a écrit :
Hi Vincent,

The two attached emails were never answered.
I did answer them (on Nov 28), shortly after you sent them.  Maybe my
reply went to your spam.  I'll send this msg through another server and
hope you get it ...


From: address@hidden (Karl Berry)
To: address@hidden
Subject: Re: Some issues with ifinfo and ifhtml
In-Reply-To: <address@hidden>

Hi Vincent,

    FYI, the attached file produce a compilation error. It seems that the
    @setfilename command cannot be enclosed within @ifhtml or @ifinfo

That is true.  Don't do that.

    then the HTML compilation produces plenty of warnings on macroes
    previously defined.

Macros inside @copying are unlikely to work very well, if at all.
Define macros at the top level of the document.

In general, Texinfo macros are (unfortunately) quite suboptimal, and
using lots of them is likely to cause unexpected problems.  They aren't
like m4 or TeX macros -- in Texinfo, the @macro expansion process is
fraught with problems and can't even be completely defined.  In
particular, macros interact with line-oriented commands very badly.
Sorry ... maybe we'll design a better system one day.

More answers to your other mail in a minute.


From: address@hidden (Karl Berry)
To: address@hidden
CC: address@hidden
Subject: Re: Texinfo and node presentation names
In-Reply-To: <address@hidden>

Hi Vincent,

I'm cc-ing Patrice Dumas, who maintains the texi2html-derived makeinfo
that will be the "makeinfo" in the next Texinfo release.

    I also find it more convenient to type Texinfo code than HTML code,

Glad to hear you say this.  Me too :).

rather the node /displayed name/.
It is true that Texinfo has no concept of "displayed node name".
It seems quite a complicated concept to introduce, since nodes are the
fundamental building block of Texinfo files.

Also, it is impossible by design to have a "displayed node name"
different from the real node name in Info output.  Info output is
essentially plain text and there is no way to somehow magically
substitute strings at display time.

I gather what you want is to use (something like)
@node A chapter
in both manual.en.texi and manual.fr.texi, but somehow have
"Un chapitre" be what actually appears in the French output.  Is that right?

If it's only an issue of maintenance, how about simply using something
like this in manual.fr.texi:

@c node A chapter
@node Un chapitre

Then it would be possible to write a tool to verify the consistency of
the nodes in the English with the nodes in the translations.

    - Words like Up, Next, Previous, are not translated for the HTML export,

Really?  Those are keywords for Info output, so can't be translated
there.  But they should be translated for HTML, seems to me.

    - In jPicEdt manual, just like in JDEE manual, the HTML display is in
two frames:
The HTML output from texi2html is just about infinitely customizable, so
in principle I feel pretty sure that anything you want there can be
done.  I think I've seen HTML output from Texinfo manuals that's similar
to what you describe.  Patrice can answer more precisely.

(Just BTW, I find that sites using HTML frames are inherently confusing
to users.)

Hope we can work things out so you're happy with the use of Texinfo for
your project ...


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