Re: Object environment for windows question

[Stefan Urbanek]

On 2002-09-30 14:09:48 +0200 Nicola Pero <nicola@brainstorm.co.uk> wrote:

> > Hi all,
> >
> > As a part of my thesis is going to be a simulation tool for multi-agent 
> > systems. Besides other key features it has to be easy to use and understandable
> > by non-computer literate and it has to work also on Windows, because
> > most of targeted people are using them. Environment I would like to use
> > has to be OO (for me) and easy to install (for the user). I am
> > considering GNUstep, some Smalltalk distribution, Squeak and
> > Swarm. Swarm is using ObjectiveC and tcl/tk interface, so it works fine
> > with windows and has single .exe installation file. Squeak also works
> > with windows, but it is like 'big monster', it runs in one window with
> > its own UI.
> >
> > I would prefere GNUstep, because I am familiar with it and it provides me 
> > almost everything I need except portability to windows. I do not have 
> > experience with
> > windows programing so I would like to ask what is the state of Windows
> > backend? How it is usable?
>
> You could try using the windows backend, and switch to use another sort of
> interface (like tcl/tk, the same Swarm uses), if it turns out too
> difficult/buggy.

I will give back-win a try when I install gnustep on windows.

> Actually, you could rewrite Swarm to work on top of GNUstep ... replace
> their custom basic classes with GNUstep ones, their custom libobjc with
> the standard libobjc, etc ... <not sure how they would take it :-)>

This is what I wanted to do and as first I have to do is to get-into swarm 
library. Now it seems, from some discussions on their mailing lists, that their 
specific libobjc is needed no more.
The thing is, that swarm modelling classes do not fit well to what I need. Only 
thing that I wanted from swarm were collection and gui classes. Basicaly, swarm 
attracted me because it is using ObjC and has GUI on windows. I will dig deeper 
into swarm library and see what can be rewritten using GNUstep, if there will 
be same effor for rewriting as for writting new classes, then I will consider 
writting them a new.

> > Another question: how is it difficult for non-developer to install GNUstep? Is 
> > there any self extracting GNUstep-install.exe?
>
> No - there is no self extracting GNUstep-install.exe, you're supposed to
> compile everything from sources, and it's difficult at the moment.
>
> But it could be made easy for end-users.  Once you've compiled everything
> from sources on your machine and built binaries, I suppose you could then
> create a self-extracting .exe file which just unpacks the (prebuilt)
> binaries, ready for use.

Is there some 'make' target, like 'make install-exe'? Does an user have to 
install msys and gnustep or can it be statically linked (or included in the 
package)?
In other words, what the user has to do to use GNUstep application?

> Users would then just download the self-extracting .exe, and need not work
> with sources etc.  If they run applications and stuff via a wrapper script
> which sets up the appropriate environment variables, it might be very user
> friendly.
>
> Work will be required in this area ... but with the benefit that it's
> useful work which would benefit the project :-)
>
> I'm willing to help you with the technicalities of gnustep-make if you
> need help ... but unfortunately I don't run windows.

I would be thankful for any help, because I feel like lost in the Windows world 
:-)
> > My another reason for using GNUstep instead of some another environment 
> > (althought GS may not be the best choice for such thing) is that I whould like 
> > to
> > 'advertise' GNUstep and to show that it can be also used for scientific
> > applications.
>
> I quite like Swarm's idea/approach of using Objective-C dynamic features
> to build simulations of multi agents systems ... I just wish they used
> GNUstep rather than building their own base/gui class libraries. :-)

I think that GNUstep was not mature enough at the time swarm library was 
developed. The idea of swarm is nice, but there are many things that I am 
missing in swarm that are in GS or are not as nice as those in GS (like 
archiving, key-value coding or GUI).

Stefan