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Re: [ELPA] New package: transient
From: |
tomas |
Subject: |
Re: [ELPA] New package: transient |
Date: |
Thu, 30 Apr 2020 20:58:20 +0200 |
User-agent: |
Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) |
On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 08:14:28PM +0200, Philippe Vaucher wrote:
[tomas]
> > That's it. Although my feeling is that your (Alan) reaction was too
> > sharp, I also feel that you, Philippe, disregard the cultural aspects
> > of your proposal [...]
> I'm amazed that you reach this conclusion based on this story. My main
> argument was "hey, let's add a clearer api where it makes sense, so things
> are better namespaced".
I'm sorry that you are amazed. It seems I'm unable to bring across my
point.
> People kept nitpicking about the alist example not being good enough, so I
> raise other examples where it's more obvious (file*, buffer*, process*,
> window*) but people keep on going back to the alist example, as if it's
> impossible for you to steelman my argument.
No, not "not good enough". People around here /care/ about the alist
examples, since it's core Lisp terminology. It may be a bit strange,
but it makes programs more readable to people around here. Changing
that is not only a technical question, and if you don't account for
that, strong reactions are to be expected.
This is the point I think you may be missing.
> Anyway Stefan agreed and proposed something about list. I said good idea
> and we can make alias to the old names (that means KEEP the old names), and
> EVENTUALLY (in a far future) deprecate the old names, and what you guys
> deduce from this? That I want to rename the existing API right now.
Right now, eventually -- some care strongly about keeping parts of it.
It's, of course, on them to listen to you -- but it's on you to accept
their position, too.
> This is strawmaning my position, I believe you wanted me to have this
> position because you felt threatened by change.
This old saw. "You're just hostile to change". Please don't. I know
that from other discussions of this kind (believe me, I've witnessed
quite a few) and it is... not constructive.
> > And when people react ("hell, no!"), you're offended and drive deeper
> > in your denial of the "other side's" points.
> >
>
> It looks like you never consider that I'm not denying the other side's
> point, I'm saying they are not relevant to my argument.
See above.
> IMHO valid rebuttals to my argument would have been:
>
> - It's too much work.
> - The supposed advantages are not demonstrated.
> - It will create two APIs to maintain (even tho they would only be aliases
> but still a valid argument).
>
> But certainly not:
>
> - look, some parts of the string library in C does not follow this so your
> idea is not valid
> - emacs lisp is not namespaced because that is how we filter smarter people
> - if we start namespaceing one api then we will end up with math.+ because
> it's impossible to apply your idea in a sane way
So it's you who fixes what a "valid rebuttal" is? That's not the way
how negotiations work.
> Of course I also strawman your arguments here, but you'd get my point.
> Address the center of the target, not its periphery.
As defined by whom?
Cheers
-- tomás
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- Re: [ELPA] New package: transient, (continued)
- Re: [ELPA] New package: transient, Alan Mackenzie, 2020/04/29
- Re: [ELPA] New package: transient, tomas, 2020/04/29
- Re: [ELPA] New package: transient, Philippe Vaucher, 2020/04/29
- Re: [ELPA] New package: transient, Alan Mackenzie, 2020/04/30
- Re: [ELPA] New package: transient, tomas, 2020/04/30
- Re: [ELPA] New package: transient, Dmitry Gutov, 2020/04/30
- Re: [ELPA] New package: transient, Philippe Vaucher, 2020/04/30
- Re: [ELPA] New package: transient, tomas, 2020/04/30
- Re: [ELPA] New package: transient, tomas, 2020/04/30
- Re: [ELPA] New package: transient, Philippe Vaucher, 2020/04/30
- Re: [ELPA] New package: transient,
tomas <=
- Re: [ELPA] New package: transient, Philippe Vaucher, 2020/04/30
- Re: [ELPA] New package: transient, tomas, 2020/04/30
- Re: [ELPA] New package: transient, Alan Mackenzie, 2020/04/30
- Re: [ELPA] New package: transient, chad, 2020/04/30
- Keeping it kind, Clément Pit-Claudel, 2020/04/30
- Re: [ELPA] New package: transient, Richard Stallman, 2020/04/30
- Re: [ELPA] New package: transient, Clément Pit-Claudel, 2020/04/29
- Re: [ELPA] New package: transient, Stefan Monnier, 2020/04/29
- Re: [ELPA] New package: transient, Philippe Vaucher, 2020/04/29
- Re: [ELPA] New package: transient, Eli Zaretskii, 2020/04/29