Re: [External] : Re: indent-tabs-mode default [was: Representation of the Emacs userbase on emacs-devel]

[Tim Cross]

Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

> Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Regardless of debate on whether there are new users or not, evidence
>> indicates those who want spaces and those who want tabs are roughly
>> equally divided. Therefore, half those 'old' users are required to
>> change the setting regardless of what the default is. All your
>> argument seems to come down to is that your happy with the status quo
>> and don't want it to change because that is in-line with your
>> preference. That is fine, but is no stronger an argument than arguing
>> for the default to be changed - in this case, changing or not changing
>> based solely on level of annoyance is simply insufficient.
>
> So, if the default is changed, the other half of the "roughly equally
> divided" portion of the userbase will also have to change their
> settings, which means the entire userbase will have changed that
> settings.
>
> Which is more pleasant?  To have the half of the userbase who have, for
> the most part, already done so, change their settings, or to have the
> other half of the userbase who have mostly not done so change their
> settings?
>

Flawed argument. Those who have set it don't have to do anything. They
could remove it to slightly reduce their config size, but they could
just as easily do nothing with no impact. 

>> I would suggest very few people have ever fully read the manual before
>> using Emacs. Besides, the best way to read the manual is with Emacs,
>> so you already have a 'chicken and egg' situations. Furthermore, the
>> fact the default was already at the setting you wanted would indicate
>> you never needed to find this information and therefore are not in a
>> strong position to argue whether that is easy or not. On the other
>> hand, when I started using Emacs I did need to change the default and
>> I do recall it took some effort to work out how to do that - enough
>> effort to be annoying. As already stated, annoyance is an insufficient
>> criteria in this case because the two sides are roughly
>> equal. Understanding the expectations of new users may change that
>> balance and is therefore worth considering.
>
> The manual is available in print, and downloadable online in HTML,
> PostScript and PDF format.  While the Emacs Info reader may be
> convenient, there is nothing preventing users from reading the manual in
> any of those other formats, or even an alternative Info reader, before
> reading the manual in Emacs, so I don't see how that is a problem.
>

The real problem is that people simply don't read the manual before
using the editor. If you did, that makes you quite unusual. What most
people will do is use the editor and then turn to the manual when they
have problems. 

> Emacs also has an Easy Customization interface.  Even without reading
> the manual, one can simply search "indent tabs" inside the Easy
> Customization interface, and reach the option.
>
> If that fails, an apropos for 'indent tabs' turns up indent-tabs-mode as
> the first result.
>
> And if ignorance of the manual really is a problem, then how about
> finding a way to publicize the manual?  For instance, a weekly post
> about the manual in comp.emacs, or r/emacs, or whatever happens to be
> popular ATM.
>

All the above paragraphs tell me is that changing the setting is
trivial. this also means that whatever the default is really doesn't
matter as the level of annoyance associated with having to change it is
minimal regardless of what the default is. Again, staying with the
current default based on a argument of annoyance is irrelevant. Other
criteria are needed in order to make the decision anything more than
arbitrary.

There is also the problem of familiarity with all of the above. If you
are use to Emacs and know all of this, yes it is easy and fairly
trivial. If your not, it can be hard. The defaults are primarily for
this category, not for experienced users IMO. I have little sympathy for
arguments against change based solely on annoyance for experienced
users. As you point out, once you know about the customization
interface, appropos etc, making the change is trivial. For new users,
not so much.  

I think it is also difficult to argue not to change a default and at the
same time argue that it is easy for the user to change it if they don't
like the default. 

> There also seem to be cross-editor solutions for configuring these
> options on a per-file or a per-project basis, such as editor-config.  If
> Emacs gains support for these solutions, they could potentially
> alleviate these problems in their entirety.


Things like support for editorconfig are a good idea. To what extent
editorconfig will support the more subtle interplay between how options
are defined for different editors is another issue. In theory, I think
it could be a useful addition/extension. I guess there could be some
subtle issues to consider though - for example, an editorconfig which is
changing things which the user does not want changed and being able to
efficiently track that source of change.