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Re: wip-cite status question and feedback


From: Denis Maier
Subject: Re: wip-cite status question and feedback
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 22:35:07 +0200

Am 26.04.2021 um 16:54 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus:
I had an idea on this, though it may not be a good one ...

On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 2:39 PM Bruce D'Arcus <bdarcus@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 1:47 PM Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> wrote:

Hello,

"Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@gmail.com> writes:

Some sentence with a concluding citation [cite:@key].

... that should end up like this:

Some sentence with a concluding citation.[1]

Aside: looking through the CSL spec, it doesn't seem this is
documented. It obviously should be.

And I don't remember if that convention is locale-specific; e.g. if
while that's the standard in English, it could be different in France.

In any case, this sort of punctuation modification should be possible.

Could you show more example of this, possibly including quotes the
citation, or better, a precise description of the punctuation
modification you have in mind?

Yes.

Denis lays it out in this comment:

https://github.com/citation-style-language/documentation/issues/139#issuecomment-825934813

What he's arguing is that the rules vary by locale, with German, for
example (he's employed at a Swiss-German institution, I believe),
having different conventions than English, and American English
different than British English.

But an example from American English for illustration, derived from
Denis' examples.

"A simple quote" [cite:@doe].

When rendered, that should be this in an author-date style:

"A simple quote" (Doe 2021).

... and this in a note style:

"A simple quote."[^1]

So that rule would suggest something like:

- if a citation concludes a sentence, move the note mark and whatever
trailing quotation mark, outside the period.

But, Denis continues, "While this is perfectly acceptable in American
English, it is not in German, or even in British English. Here we have
to know whether the final period is part of the original quotation. If
yes, it will be put inside the quotes, otherwise outside." I'll paste
the rest of his examples at the end.

It's possible his rule here is more general, and would still be
acceptable in American English.

The idea is this: make use of a "quote" style and abuse the item
prefix for the quote content?

So using his example:

[cite/quote:;A simple quote. @doe20]

A processor could then know the citation is associated with a quote
that ends a sentence, vs (note missing period):

[cite/quote:;A simple quote @doe20]

... and then more easily adjust accordingly, without needing to know
anything about the surrounding punctuation.

Does that make sense?

Reminds me a bit of how the latex csquotes package works, which is often used together with biblatex, it even was developped by the original biblatex author before he mysteriously disappeared about a decade ago.

In addition to simple commands like \enquote{something} that simply render the argument in quotes this package also has more complex commands such as \textcquote or blockcquote. With these commands you can combine a quotation with a citation: \textcquote[〈prenote〉][〈postnote〉]{〈key〉}[〈punct〉]{〈text〉} 〈tpunct〉

\textcquote[45]{doe}[.]{This is the quotation}
Note the punctuation of the original quote is included in a special argument in brackets.
If the period weren't part of the quotation, you'd simply do:
\textcquote[45]{doe}{This is the quotation}.

Regarding the proposal: I think that could go in the right direction, but in the current form it has the downside that you can't use the prefix anymore, right? What about keeping this separate, like so:

[quote: A simple quote.][cite: @doe p. 45]

But maybe even that is not necessary, and there might be simpler ways.

WDYT?

Denis









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