Re: [wip-cite-new] Adjust punctuation around citations

[Denis Maier]

Just one addition: I think it will be perfectly fine if the current 
suggestion is added now. I guess adding additional features later will 
be always possible, right? I don't know what the plans are for the next 
org release, and I don't want this question here to stand in the way.

Denis

Am 14.06.2021 um 13:45 schrieb Denis Maier:
> Below a few examples of what I mean.
>
> WDYT? Am I missing something?
>
> Denis
> ===========================================================
> #+cite_export: csl
> #+cite_export: csl 
> "C:/Users/denis/Zotero/styles/chicago-note-bibliography.csl"
> #+bibliography: test.bib
>
> * Original source
>
> "A quotation ending with a period."
>
> "A quotation ending without punctuation"
>
> * Author-date style input (= semantically non-strict input)
>
> "A quotation ending with a period" [cite: @hoel-71-whole].
>
> "A quotation ending without punctuation" [cite: @hoel-71-whole].
>
> ** author-date output with language: en-us
> Expected: "A quotation ending with a period" (Hoel 1971).
> Actual:   "A quotation ending with a period" (Hoel 1971).
>
> Expected: "A quotation ending without punctuation" (Hoel 1971).
> Actual:   "A quotation ending without punctuation" (Hoel 1971).
>
> => ok
>
> ** author-date output with language: de
> Expected: "A quotation ending with a period" (Hoel 1971).
> Actual:   "A quotation ending with a period" (Hoel 1971).
>
> Expected: "A quotation ending without punctuation" (Hoel 1971).
> Actual:   "A quotation ending without punctuation" (Hoel 1971).
>
> => ok
>
> ** note style output with language: en-us
> Expected: "A quotation ending with a period."[1]
> Actual:   "A quotation ending with a period."[1]
>
> Expected: "A quotation ending without punctuation."[1]
> Actual:   "A quotation ending without punctuation."[1]
>
> => ok
>
> ** note style output with language: en-gb or de
> Expected: "A quotation ending with a period."[1]
> Actual:   "A quotation ending with a period".[1]
>
> Expected: "A quotation ending without punctuation".[1]
> Actual:   "A quotation ending without punctuation".[1]
>
> => Here, we cannot distinguish between the two cases as we don't know 
> whether punctuation appears in the original source.
>
> * Note style input (=semantically strict input)
>
> "A quotation ending with a period." [cite: @hoel-71-whole]
>
> "A quotation ending without punctuation". [cite: @hoel-71-whole]
>
> As the input preserves the location of punctuation in the original 
> material, I'd say it should be much easier to deal with this. We don't 
> have to add information which isn't in the input, but rather we'll just 
> have to move any punctuation to after the citation object. Maybe I'm 
> missing something, but to me this looks like a much simpler operation 
> than going in the opposite direction.
>
> Maybe we should stop talking about author date vs note style input, but 
> rather about strict vs. non-strict input. And, I think that's the whole 
> issue: going from strict to non-strict is easy while the other way is 
> more complicated; at least, it would require some more efforts to 
> support the last case (going from non-strict input to note style output 
> with a language that requires strict output.
> =========================================================================
>
> Am 14.06.2021 um 00:47 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus:
> > I'll let you two sort it out; I don't have a position.
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 3:23 PM Denis Maier <denismaier@mailbox.org 
> > <mailto:denismaier@mailbox.org>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >     Bruce D'Arcus <bdarcus@gmail.com <mailto:bdarcus@gmail.com>> hat
> > >     am 14.06.2021 00:04 geschrieben:
> > >
> > >
> > >     Nicolas explained the reverse is out of scope,
> >     IIRC, it was out of scope ATM.
> > >     and gave a reasonable explanation why (because much harder to
> > >     reconstruct missing information IIRC).
> >     That's where I disagree. I think the opposite is true.
> >
> > >     On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 2:54 PM Denis Maier <denismaier@mailbox.org
> > >     <mailto:denismaier@mailbox.org>> wrote:
> > >
> > >         Am 12.06.2021 um 11:39 schrieb Nicolas Goaziou:
> > >         > Hello,
> > >         >
> > >         > Denis Maier <denismaier@mailbox.org
> > >         <mailto:denismaier@mailbox.org>> writes:
> > >         >
> > >         >> Yes, good this is coming.
> > >         >
> > >         > As a step forward, I rebased wip-cite-new branch with more
> > >         support for
> > >         > note numbers handling.
> > >         >
> > >         > I added three customizable variables:
> > >         >
> > >         > - org-cite-adjust-note-numbers, which simply allows the
> > >         user to toggle
> > >         >    punctuation and note number moving (on by default).
> > >         >
> > >         > - org-cite-note-rules, which defines what rules to apply
> > >         according to
> > >         >    locale, expressed as a language tag, as in RFC 4646.
> > >         >
> > >         > - org-cite-punctuation-marks, which lists strings
> > >         recognized as
> > >         >    punctuation in the process.
> > >         >
> > >         > `csl' and `basic' processors now both make use of this.
> > >         >
> > >         > I'd appreciate some feedback, in particular about the
> > >         docstrings of the
> > >         > variables above. I focused on the "note numbers" topic
> > >         instead of
> > >         > "punctuation" since I found the latter too generic.
> > >         >
> > >         > Also, there are some points that may need to be discussed:
> > >         >
> > >         > - I'm not sure about the `org-cite-punctuation-marks'
> > >         variable being
> > >         >    global, i.e., not locale-specific.
> > >         >
> > >         > - There is no support for this in LaTeX-derived back-ends,
> > >         because
> > >         >    I don't know when a citation is going to become a
> > >         footnote. As
> > >         >    a reminder, there is no "\footcite" command in
> > >         `biblatex' processor.
> > >         >    OTOH, users might prefer using a more advanced
> > >         mechanism, e.g.,
> > >         >    csquotes.
> > >         >
> > >         > - It doesn't do anything special in quote blocks, because
> > >         I'm still not
> > >         >    sure there is something to do. AFAIU, special casing
> > >         there only
> > >         >    applies to author-date location, which out of the scope
> > >         of this code.
> > >         >
> > >         > WDYT?
> > >
> > >         Ok, I've managed to test this a bit, and I think this looks
> > >         pretty good
> > >         so far.
> > >
> > >         The only question I'd still have is if this could somehow
> > >         also cover the
> > >         reverse situation (going from a note style to author-date).
> > >         I've noticed
> > >         that simply adding a new language rule doesn't work
> > >         anymore---as opposed
> > >         to my initial tests with earlier iterations of that
> > >         mechanism. Seems
> > >         like this mechanism is now only triggered when using a note
> > >         based style.
> > >
> > >         Best,
> > >         Denis
> > >
> > >         >
> > >         > Regards,
> > >         >