Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[Ihor Radchenko]

CCing RMS as this discussion might be of interest for him.
The previous emails in the thread are in
b074b191-b06f-928d-284c-7a7ee5d97ce8@ctpowe.net/T/#u">https://list.orgmode.org/b074b191-b06f-928d-284c-7a7ee5d97ce8@ctpowe.net/T/#u

Bastien Guerry <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Thanks for raising this issues.
>
> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Fair point. Paypal requires non-free javascript. Github as well,
>> AFAIK.
>
> I've removed the GitHub Sponsors and Paypal links from orgmode.org.

To clarify, I did not intend to make you remove those links, but rather
wanted to hear your opinion and open a discussion.

As Michael pointed out, https://my.fsf.org/donate itself contains a
paypal payment option:

>> PayPal (not recommended: requires nonfree JavaScript)

Given the apparent contradictory statement in the GNU Coding Standards
(section 8), I feel that either we misunderstand something or the
standards should be updated adding guidelines for the donation services.

Donations (maybe except certain cryptocurrencies) are inherently
non-free because even for direct bank transfers users are often forced
to use bank "security" apps. At the same time, limiting the donation
options will do a lot of harm to FSF projects - cryprocurrency entry
barriers are too high for many users to donate even if they wish to and
not all the countries allow crypto legally.

The entry barriers are important. From my own experience, compared to
just bank details, some online payment made a difference in my decisions
to donate. Easy and familiar web services really facilitate actual
donations (as well as feedback from new users).

I wish there were more easy donation options for an ordinary user to
donate to FSF projects without a need to rely on non-free software. Note
that even liberapay, while providing bank transfer payments, also offers
paypal. Yet, it is the best option I am aware of. Maybe FSF could step
up providing such service?

> I've not removed the link to https://liberapay.com: I suppose it is
> usable without requiring non-free Javascript, but I've not checked.
> If someone wants to check, that'd be appreciated.

I just tried to setup a payment via liberapay using firefox with librejs
extension. I was unable to complete the card payment. It appears that
card payment service liberapay is using requires non-free javascript. I
might be wrong though. It was the first time I actually tried using
liberapay.

In any case, given FSF website providing paypal option, liberapay should
not be an issue. But it leaves us with no real option to allow _easy_
donations yet committing to FSF guidelines.

> I've not removed every links to github.com on orgmode.org: e.g. the
> link to TEC's homepage at the bottom of the website is still here.
>
> The reason is that browsing TEC's GitHub profile does not require
> non-free Javascript: I can browse it fine with M-x eww.

> I guess we shall remove references to non-free software (like the
> Sublime Text editor - I will do this later on.)

Sounds reasonable.

>> However, WORG contains links to various blogs, reddit,
>> stackoverflow, and even youtube and it feels right. I notice that I
>> am confused. I would like to hear Bastien's opinion on the topic.
>
> Here is my view on this: the orgmode.org website is part of the GNU
> project because Org is part of the GNU project, hence the root pages
> of https://orgmode.org should follow the GNU standards.
>
> Worg is different: it is a community-driven documentation about Org.
> Even though worg contents are licensed under GNU FDL, they are not
> part of the GNU project.
>
> If needed, we can make this clearer on the website or even host worg
> on a dedicated domain name.

If we really want to be very strict about following FSF, we might advice
users about alternative ways to view youtube (invidious/youtube-dl). I
just tried stackoverflow and reddit via librejs. The links there can be
opened and be read. I do not think that we need to care much about
commenting.

Best,
Ihor