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Re: [Fsfe-uk] BBC's DRM Iplayer windows only

From: MJ Ray
Subject: Re: [Fsfe-uk] BBC's DRM Iplayer windows only
Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 00:50:56 +0000
User-agent: Heirloom mailx 12.2 01/07/07

Three replies in one, you lucky lucky people.

"Dave Crossland" <address@hidden> wrote: [...]
> list members mailing Ralph (who admins the list) offlist to complain
> about the discussion, presumably because they don't know how to use
> the advanced "mute thread" features of their email clients, [...]

Not all email clients have such features.  It's much more polite not
to post too many emails about one topic, especially if it goes around
in circles, as definitions have to.

Matt Lee <address@hidden> wrote: [...]
> If anyone would like to discuss GNU/Linux or anything else, without fear
> of delays or being told to shut up and go away, Manchester Free Software
> has a list that will happily accommodate you.
>       http://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/fsuk-manchester

Anyone near Manchester should join that list.  However, I wish it a
flamewar soon so that its seemingly undisclosed charter is shown for
the problem that it is.

> [...] Plus, as an added bonus, MJ Ray is not on our list. [...]

Please try to keep it positive and polite.  I'm even more surprised by
this personal attack coming from someone who has my direct line
details but appears to have made no effort to contact me about
whatever problem they have.  Great PR job by an FSF worker there(!)

Noah Slater <address@hidden> wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 08, 2008 at 05:49:26PM +0000, MJ Ray wrote:
> > Arguably, calling the operating system GNU+Linux or Linux+GNU, while
> > more accurate, is retronaming in a way.
> No, you are totally wrong. [GNU's history]

That's your side of the argument, with which I agree personally, and
I'm happy to be a developer of a free software operating system which
includes GNU in its name (which even GNU's current favourite gNewSense
doesn't appear to).

We have to accept that many GNU-based operating systems called
themselves Linux at the outset and attempting to change their name is
a change of name.

> > I'm not sure that Open Source is a revision of Free Software
> Free Software predates Open Source by 15 years.

I know the dates.  That doesn't make one a revision of the other.  I
also know what the Open Source Initiative was originally claimed to
do, how it failed and I watched it develop into something a bit harmful.

> > Anyway, please finish this subthread (there will be a slight delay on
> > posts to it from now on) 
> Is this list moderated? What do you mean delay? I didn't realise we
> were only allowed to discuss things deemed suitable subject matter.

No, this list isn't moderated, but it is managed.

By delay, I mean posts will be held for a few hours.  Nothing that
doesn't break the guidelines will be rejected, but this topic needs to
avoid spiralling into another flamewar and I think adding a delay will
help that, as it has before, by allowing time for reflection.

Of course we are only allowed to discuss things deemed suitable
subject matter - nearly all mailing lists operate within a defined
topic, usually shown on the page where you subscribe/unsubscribe which
is linked in every footer.  The one for this list hasn't changed in
years, and it explicitly says that debating definitions is not
welcome.  There are other places, with more resources, which are more
suitable for that, such as perhaps

> If you look closely, I am not arguing the point that GNU/Linux is the
> correct name, I am arguing the point that the FSF still needs to
> protect and campaign the name. A very differnt topic and a very
> important one.

If we have to look closely, the message isn't clear enough IMO. These
are emotive topics and some people won't look closely.  Please try to
deal with that.  I thought it seemed more like debating definitions of
retronaming and open source, which isn't helpful.

MJ Ray http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html tel:+44-844-4437-237 -
Webmaster-developer, statistician, sysadmin, online shop builder,
consumer and workers co-operative member http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ -
Writing on koha, debian, sat TV, Kewstoke http://mjr.towers.org.uk/

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