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Re: Vertically Integrated Permaculture Mosaic

From: wayne, steve
Subject: Re: Vertically Integrated Permaculture Mosaic
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 13:28:52 -0500

Okay, you have answered my initial questions well enough but I am only really satisfied when I think in the context of some existing VIPM somewhere.

When I consider, for example, how do I pay for my healthcare if I commit my actions to the idea of VIPM when 

A) There is initially no guarantee of buy-in to the VIPM by professional healthcare providers 

B) If I work with a group of people to provide VIPM service or product, then a significant amount of my time and effort goes into providing that service or product with only the promise of future payment with some other product or service rather than payment with the money I need to seek healthcare in the external economy (see point A).

Perhaps I am getting stuck unnecessarily on minor details.

This might be too personal, but I should also mention my rather large student loans--the responsibility for which falls on my co-signers if I do decide to drop out of the capitalist economy. I think there are more than a few of us in this situation...


On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 1:09 PM, Patrick Anderson <> wrote:
wayne, steve wrote:

> Do you suggest that with a vertically integrated
> permaculture mosaic we do not need money, or that
> the only time money is used is when interfacing with
> the external economy?


People will need plain old money for as long as the
Products they want are not yet fully Vertically
Integrated within the VIPM.

But as Vertical Integration approaches completion, the
need to use money is reduced in two ways:

1.) Products are not bought or sold (except surplus)
because they are already the property of the people
who will use them.

2.) Monetary wages are not paid in the traditional
sense because we barter skills before production
begins, and so accept the work of other on our behalf
in lieu of money.

For interfacting with the external economy, I think
the most common transition will be for subgroups to
initially purchase off-site Products in bulk to "tide
them over" while also slowly investing in the MoP for
that Product.

For example, if you like hamburgers, then you will
group with others to buy land and water-rights and
young beef-calves and alfalfa seed and salt-licks and
even finally salt mines; but until those things can be
aquired and fully productive, you will also buy cases
of frozen hamburgers from some off-site farmer or even
just a regular grocery store or wherever.

> You mentioned building our own ISP...  we need some
> entry point into that network which is likely to be
> a utility service provided by the extant capitalist
> system.  But where does the money for interfacing in
> these ways come from?

In nearly every case, and for nearly every Product,
the money will mostly come from middle-income
consumers who can pre-pay for that Product in bulk and
also toward buying the MoP to wean ourselves off of
the Capitalist providers.

In the example of an ISP, we organize neighborhoods of
consumers to pre-pay for the equipment needed to
connect their houses to each other, and then subscribe
to the ISP through a "business grade" connection that
is split among them.

> What about other vital services and products? Such
> as those related to personal transportation;

We will need to use plain-old-money to buy bicycles
and parts and oil and paint, etc. until we can
buy/build forges and buy oil-fields and buy/build
refineries and all the tools and factories required to
create these Products.

This is a very long-term goal, and will take decades
to complete fully.

> What about healthcare? It is fine to suggest that
> someone with a degree in medicine -should- provide
> those services for the promise of future repayment
> from patients, yet this kind of promise does not
> provide any financial liability buffer against legal
> action involved in malpractice disputes.

This is a potential problem for all services, but
I know it is a special legal problem for doctors.

> Even IF you manage to construct an effective legal
> barrier against such actions, what recourse is there
> for those who feel they have been wronged by those
> providing healthcare?

To protect healthcare providers in particular, I
wonder if patients can sign a waiver similar to what
you sign when you go sky-diving or other dangerous
activities where the worker needs protection from
possible lawsuits.

To protect the customers in general we will need to
find out what other service-providers do when
interfacing with the public (for example, the
quality-assurance claims written by regular ISPs or a
Farmers or grocery stores, etc.).

> Does the legal barrier allow any person claiming to
> have medical knowledge or experience practice
> without qualification?

These laws are probably region-specific, and so will
need to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

> I am currently involved in an ongoing discussion
> with the owner of the company I work for, trying to
> convince him to turn the company into a democratic,
> worker-owned cooperative.

The VIPM is neither worker-owned (in the traditional
sense) nor is it a cooperative.

Every worker must have ownership in the MoP for which
he will consume the outputs, not for which he may
happen to have skill to operate.

It is more like Consumer-Owned.

It is not a cooperative because the Product is not
*sold* back to the owners - it is their property
already.  It also differs from a cooperative in that
each member has more or less "vote weight" depending
upon how much ownership they have, whereas a
cooperative is "one member, one vote".

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