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Re: Yet another GNU Guile package manager (Fwd: Re: How to make GNU Guil

From: Amirouche
Subject: Re: Yet another GNU Guile package manager (Fwd: Re: How to make GNU Guile more successful)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 17:49:08 +0100
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Le 11/03/2017 à 02:56, Nala Ginrut a écrit :

Hi Amiroiche!

Héllo Nala!

FWIW, usually there are 3 kind s of pkg-manager:

1. SPM(system pkg manager)
It's used for building a distro, like RPM, deb, Guix.

2. LPM(language pkg manager)
It's used for specific language to install optional packages. Like npm, gem, pip, etc.
Guix could do that too, IMO.

3. APM(application pkg manager)
It's used for specific framework to install packages in local application directory. This is important for deployment. Ruby has "bundle" for that, and Python usually use pip+virtualenv for that, and npm is flexible enough to do that for JS too. Of course there are alternative tools do the similar thing in each community.

For now, I'm concerning an APM for Artanis.

I think right now I will do Language Package Manager.
I'd like to focus on community building feature that helps
document GNU Guile, like:

- wiki
- discussion pages
- pastebin

Code is always code but I need to choose which feature I will
implement given I have not an infinite set of time.

I have all those feature in some project, but now I need to put
them together.

I've discussed with @Ludo the possibility to take advantage of Guix (as a core lib) to implement it.

If you want to write yet another pkg manager, it's better to confirm which kind are you going to do, and don't forget to reuse some cool features exists in Guix. :-)

I don't think Guix can help right now. The only issue that intersect with
guix is dependency resolution, and AFAIK Guix does hardcode dependencies
in the sens it's a simple breath first search. And what I planned to do is
implement semantic versioning à la npmjs (or aptitude)

I think guix web, is enough for guix. I am not a regular guixsd user anymore,
so I am not sure how to help guix/sd.

A far reaching goal can be to link against guile-git to mix both package
management with forge.

Amirouche <address@hidden <mailto:address@hidden>>于2017年3月11日周六 04:27写道:

    There is compan, there is guildhall, there is guix. They shall be

    -------- Message transféré --------
    Sujet :         Re: How to make GNU Guile more successful
    Date :  Fri, 10 Mar 2017 21:17:37 +0100
    De :    Amirouche <address@hidden
    Pour : address@hidden <mailto:address@hidden>


    Le 10/03/2017 à 03:08, Vítor De Araújo a écrit :
    > Hi,
    > I'm relatively new to Guile and new to this list, but I saw this
    > thread in the archives and I'd like to make some comments.


    > First, I think it would be nice to have a Guile wiki, in the
    likes of
    > <>. A publicly-editable reference
    place where people can share
    > knowledge about Guile and Guile libraries and projects.
    I agree.
    > Sure, having a
    > centralized package manager/repository would be nice, but just
    > a common place where people can look up what libraries exist and
    > they can be downloaded would be nice. (I don't know how easy
    would it
    > be to set up a wiki at the Guile website.)

    The current most comprehensive list of GNU Guile package is
    available at

    There is also the github org:

    > On the topic of package management, I think that, more important
    > a central repository, is a standard format in which to distribute
    > packages for easy installation.
    I agree. The standard could be to have a tarball named using
    semantic versionning, from which one can extract the PACKAGE-NAME.
    Inside the tarball, the package manager will expect a PACKAGE-NAME.scm
    or a PACKAGE-NAME directory which can be installed into


    > I've never used guildhall, and I guess
    > it defines something like this,
    Probably but it's not documented.

    > but I think just having an
    > installation command where you can pass the URL of a package to
    > download and install (say, guild install
    > or even a git URL)
    This will still require the user to set GUILE_LOAD_PATH. Maybe we can
    add ~/.local/lib/guile/ to the default GUILE_LOAD_PATH to make things

    A simple guild install https://url/to/patch can be done in mater
    of hours
    (if not minutes).


    > would already go a long way towards making it
    > easier for people to use third-party libraries in Guile.
    I agree.
    > (Or maybe package _names_ could be URLs pointing to an index in a
    > well-defined format, which tells how to download each version of a
    > package; then we could have even dependency management without a
    > central repository. I'm pipe-dreaming here, though.)
    This seems fun, but at the same time odd.

    FWIW, I've started a new effort to build a package manager for GNU
    Guile. You can find a demo at

    It started as a guildhall web frontend but I noticed that guildhall:

    1) doesn't work with guile 2.2 and I can not make it work
    2) The solver is too complicated, even if it's based on aptitude
       it's still complicated.
    3) use a lot of other scheme libraries [0] (like foof-loop) which
       doesn't help noobs like me to dive into the code. Maybe those
       libraries are *very* neat but why not include them in Guile proper
       then and make them default.


    For all this reasons I forked the effort.

    I address each previous point as follow:

    1) I only use guile 2.2, right now guile 2.1 is not supported. I
    think it's
    bad this should be addressed at some point. AFAIR the issue is in
    guile-wiredtiger (or it's an issue with setlocale (anyway this must be

    2) I use a logic programming library called minikanren to solve the
    dependency problem. This is the first real problem I can use
    to solve a problem that is craft. This is the logic programming
    library in scheme. While it's not very advanced compared to
    the version I use called microkaren has a straight forward
    implementation that can
    hold all at once in a single head. Logic programming, like
    programming (cf. ) are two research areas in programming languages
    that could improve the way we craft algorithms today. The logic
    being more useful to me (but someone doing machine learning stuff,
    might find the probabilistic scheme very useful. Ask me for a link!).
    does have a logic language embedded in it's language in their hyper
    graph database
    (AFAIU it works using backward / forward inference but implements
    on top
    of it higher logic constructs, like abduction, anaphora
    resolution...). It's
    something they call PLN as Probabilistic Logic Network. AFAIK it's
    some kind
    of probabilistic Datalog (which is one of the API Datomic support).
    There is
    also probabilistic minikanren (albeit not useable). So, to sum up
    I can (because I am not a robot)):

    programming language research + guile + logic = minikanren.

    Mind the fact that there is also a guile-log. But I still don't
    get what
    guile-log does (hints: whereas I understand how
    microkanren does its stuff (I still need to benchmark it).

    3) I don't use foof-loop but I bring my own dependencies. I use my
    own database library that is based on wiredtiger. I've been working
    on this database library for 3 years, it's well documented and various
    example codes. That said, AFAIK, I am the only one to use it. I've
    a clone of Datomic (with the persistence part, patch welcome) which
    use a query engine similar to Datomic I guess based on minikanren.

    It's performance on a middle end laptop run Guile 2.2 are the

    - 1500 document reads per seconds
    - 1000 to 500 document write per second

    Documents are scheme assoc, and those are inserted 1000 per 1000 and
    read 1000 per 1000 until it reach 50Go of data. At that point writes
    take 1/500
    seconds or 0.002 seconds.

    The biggest dataset I *loaded* into that database is wikidata which is
    50Go, I
    don't remember how much time it takes to load it.

    I had issues with wiredtiger using the Python bindings but only
    during reads
    over a gigantic dataset of 60Giga. I say gigantic for a blog not
    for Google
    scale. Also upstream can solve issues if we can have a way to
    reproduce the
    issues (which I plan to do once guile 2.2 is out (which means I will
    redo the
    benchmarks against wikidata and read/write)). I understand the problem
    that wiredtiger being part of MongoDB is problematic as MongoDB
    might not
    care much for the same problem as ours. They will always be
    interested by
    bigger free software database, tho. As it make free publicity of how
    is their software.

    Also there is much documentation about this library. I created several
    Guile projects
    using it (albeit not big) they document several layers of the library
    and one
    Guile user reported using it for doing human/social science research.

    Search for guile wiredtiger in you favorite duckduckgo search engine.

    Some people claim that PostgreSQL has all the required feature that
    someone wants
    to store data and that this mongodb/wiredtiger is a bad. I recognize
    that wiredtiger
    can be poor man's database right now. I don't have the required
    expertise to verify
    whether it's good enough for your usecase. PostgreSQL is used in
    "production" in
    all the world using multiple workload and stuff. PostgreSQL is good.

    1) There is no dynamic ffi bindings for PostgreSQL yet, otherwise
    said you
         can't use pgsql from Guile RIGHT NOW.
    2) wiredtiger is GOOD enough, benchmark it before saying it's not good
    3) it's not SQL, it's Schemey! It's inspired from datomic which
    the goto
         for clojure with multiple implementation in the browser. This is
    killer feature
         of the clojure ecosystem that is closed source.
    4) I find it more funny to fiddle with logic programming that set
    theory of SQL.
    5) The first thing I do when pgsql bindings will be out, is to port
    feature space to PostgreSQL
    and compare both pgsql and wiredtiger.
    6) wiredtiger will always be simpler to use that Postgresql it's like
    comparing sqlite
    and Datomic.

    What happens next? You choose to hack on this project and find
    interesting in this
    TODO list:

    - fix guile-wiredtiger to work on guile 2.0

    - make it possible in guile-wiredtiger to stream the results of a look
    up using traversi using multiple cursors

    - implement disequality in microkanren (for implementing the package
    dependency resolver
       and for fun because logic is awesome).

    - implement a pastebin service using GNU Guile, yes because I
    think this
    a good bad reason to start
       another simple project that is not a static blog generator.

    - Port the wiki of to use feature space library.

    - implement or find a scheme library that does the diff two lists (to
    finish wiki implementation
       and for the package dependency resolver).

    - Help Matt Wette to complete his ffi helper
       (because we will need it for guix).

    - add guile-fibers as a submodule and use it

    - there is also a simple boolean keyword search engine that must be
    ported to feature space

    - find the code that implements trigram transderivational search
    and put
    it in the repository. Bridging
       the gap with tsearch2.

    - index the wiki

    - index the packages

    - index the pastebin

    - index the web

    And add gnunet to the mix.

    There is not a lot of get-together pure guile project out there. There
    is guix. I hope this new project
    can be the occasion for new guilers to submit patches or ideas.

    The code is currently hosted at

    The codename is "primary".

    Also I'd like to point out, that I don't need primary. I do it for the
    community only. The
    road is fascinating, tho. I could make mistakes so please input your
    feedback if you want
    to use a tool like that.

    You can:

    guix package -i wiredtiger
    git clone
    git checkout guildhall


    cd && guile -L . webui.scm

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