Re: [Fwd: Meta-issue: recent spam surge]

[Derrick Norris]

On Friday 26 October 2001 11:07 pm, Greg A. Woods wrote:
> [ On Friday, October 26, 2001 at 20:45:43 (-0400), Derrick Norris wrote: ]
>
> No, I did read and understand your post perfectly.  I did not say
> anthing about your "needs" as you define them.

I must have misread this then:

> Sounds to me though that you do NOT have any legitimate right, nor need,
> to use outbound SMTP on your dial-up account.

If I have a desire to post to a list to which I am subscribed, and using the 
services my ISP provides does not allow this, then I have a need to use 
another service which will allow it.  Of course, disregarding the technical 
differences between "wants" and "needs."

> In fact I am not _telling_ you that you don't have any such right, but I
> am telling you that your ISP does control your rights in that regard and
> no amount of whimsical desire to use the the network as _you_ see fit
> will have any bearing on what you are actually allowed to do.  You see
> it's not your network, but theirs.

Granted.  But there are AUPs and then there are enforced AUPs.  Most ISPs 
(including mine) disallow the use of servers excepting the business-class 
customer, but many do not enforce the rules for their home customers as long 
as their network is not adversely affected.  It really wouldn't bother me if 
they did force me to shut down my SMTP, since it may give me the ammunition 
needed to force their hand in fixing the DNS problems that broke my list 
posting in the first place.

>
> Indeed if your ISP lists the range of their IP#s that you might use when
> you connect to their network in the MAPS DUL or its equivalents then
> they are explicitly telling the entire world that you do not have a
> guaranteed right to make direct outbound SMTP connections.  Like it or
> lump it but you will not be able to make any successful SMTP connection
> to any mail server using the MAPS DUL or its equivalents (eg. my mail
> servers).

I honestly wasn't aware that it was the ISP who did the blacklisting; I 
thought it was the blacklist providers themselves who found out what ranges 
where used by ISP's and added them to the list.  Seems like only a pretty 
crappy ISP would hobble their customers in that way; they would basically be 
alienating their base of non-Windows users (at least they would alienate me). 
Sadly, that's a small percentage so such hobbling is not surprising.  My ISP 
isn't the best, but at least they don't do that to my knowledge.  By the way, 
did you get my replies on one of your spam-protected mail servers?  They were 
all sent using my outbound SMTP.

>
> > I will also not entertain notions to switch ISPs.
>
> That is your right to decide, but don't complain to me if your decision
> costs you future pain!  ;-)

Wouldn't dream of complaining to you about that :^)

> No, the idea is to technically enforce policies.  Your ISP has the right
> to force your SMTP connections to go through their authorised SMTP
> servers so that they can monitor your use of SMTP to ensure that it
> falls within their acceptable use policy -- i.e. the policy to which
> your right to use their network is bound.

Again, I'm lucky and glad that my ISP apparently doesn't.

> You seem to have a lot left to learn about the way things work in the
> real world.....

And you seem pretty jaded.  I know how things work in the real world, but 
there's nothing wrong with expressing opinions about the way things should be 
-- it may even play some small part in bringing about positive change.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree.  I never expected anything else.  You 
can have the last word -- I've added enough off-topic pollution to the list.

Derrick