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Re: 'cvs add' client/server semantics (was Re: Triggers)
Re: 'cvs add' client/server semantics (was Re: Triggers)
Wed, 2 Feb 2005 03:35:48 -0800
On Feb 1, 2005, at 12:47 PM, address@hidden wrote:
[ On Sunday, January 30, 2005 at 22:24:06 (-0800), Mark D. Baushke
Subject: Re: 'cvs add' client/server semantics (was Re: Triggers)
- there are good reasons for 'cvs add' to have an advisory process
(which becomes an enforcement at cvs commit time)
a) inform the user early that a proposed addition will fail at
a time that the user does a 'cvs commit' so as to minimize the
amount of work that is done under a mistaken assumption that
commit would succeed.
b) provide for a simpler kind of trigger implementation to just
implement policy on newly created files at commit time.
Those two are logically the exact same "reason" (the first is just a
specific form of the second), but neither are valid for CVS:
The user has the option of doing an immediate "cvs commit" of an empty
file if he or she wants to know if the filename is acceptable to the
repository. The core CVS program must not force these kinds of timing
decisions on the user. Besides t
If a shop wants to enforce this kind of policy with some kind of
technical control then they have the option of writing a wrapper
that has a "create file" feature which will create an empty file, "cvs
add" it, and then immediately "cvs commit" it.
A shop also has the option of writing their own CVS client that
the "cvs add" and "cvs commit" operations into one so that a file must
always be immediately commited (even if empty, just to reserve the
Committing empty files may not be permitted by project policy. Many
shops don't permit committing files until the code compiles. (This is
not a policy I agree with, but I have seen it in my shops. The theory
is that anyone should be able to get working code from any update, but
I think there are better methods.)
A shop also has the option of writing wrappers, or alternate client
programs, that use other repository server programs to check repo
policies at "cvs-wrapper add" time.
And this is better, cheaper, faster than adding the capability to CVS
in what way? (Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it wasn't.... Given that
proposed add-time triggers are optional on both the client and server
side, the argument is vacuous.)
None of the above require any server contact to be done in the core CVS
program within its basic "cvs add" function -- they can all be done
externally in those few places where someone might think they are
Given that the proposed add-time trigger is optional and reverts to
what you call CVS' "basic cvs add function", the fact that triggers can
be done elsewhere does not necessarily mean that they should be.
c) the addition of pre-<event> and post-<event> triggers to cvs
commands that presently modify the repository allows more
for a cvs administrator to enforce policy pro-actively.
This kind of nonsense goes way beyond the basic change tracking
functionality of CVS and tries to turn CVS into a project management
tool. Such things are best done by additional tools since they have an
extremely narrow application in a very limited number of shops.
No, it does not try to turn CVS into a project management tool. It
enables CVS to integrate with one. There's a difference, and I find
that tightly integrated environment tend to work better. By "tightly
integrated" I mean a collection of tools that freely exchange data in
meaningful ways and spawn or sense actions taken in other tools.
The *info scripting hooks in CVS are only intended to make site
customization possible for things like reporting functions, and to
provide hooks for for very basic consistency checks.
CVS is supposed to keep out of your way, not get in your face at every
point you interact with it.
Ah, this statement suggest that you believe that policies are serving
and that automatic enforcement serves only to hinder progress. In my
experience, the best policies have the following qualities:
- Understood and agreed upon by the entire team.
- Automated to the full extent possible.
- Tedious tasks are fully automated.
- Default tool settings produce proper results.
- Errors are detected as early as is practical, while they're easy to
- Error correction is not hindered.
- Users produce correct results, unaware that policies are in fact
In the end, the right product pops out the end of the process, with an
acceptable level of quality, almost as a natural consequence (or even
Certainly he is not suggesting
any client/server protocol change and the addition of a trigger is
simple to accomplish.
Well actually he is requiring a protocol change -- at least if it's to
be done right. And remember he'd likely also want "cvs rm" triggers.
I haven't asked for them. I have not yet experienced demonstrable harm
in their absence. That doesn't mean I won't ask for them at some time
in the future.
No client changes are required, so only the server
needs to be upgraded to add the new functionality.
Again, to do it right I think it would -- and then there's "cvs rm"....
And while we're at it, how about "cvs admin"...
Greg's arguments for not contacting the server on a 'cvs add' would
require the semantics of a 'cvs commit' to be extended to allow for
directories to be created
Well it depends on what level you're looking at, but no, 'cvs commit'
semantics are not really changed -- my complete "cvs add" revamp
covers this whole issue.
Remember directories are not tracked in any way -- they're just
placeholders for filenames. They simply come and go as required. If
there are files to go in a directory then the directory has to exist,
and if there are no files to go in it then it does not exist (though of
course files are never really removed in the repository since their
history must be preserved, but that's already handled by the prune
option (which shouldn't be an option -- it should always happen).
So, from an implementation point of view, it would appear that Paul's
proposal is easier than Greg's.
They're not even really related -- my "cvs add" proposal simply fixes
the long standing problems and bugs to bring it in line with "cvs rm"
from a UI perspective.
Paul's proposal is only really about adding server hooks to all client
The only reason my proposal pushes Paul's "I have to have total
centralized control" hot-button is because I take away one of his
potential points of control -- one he should never have been able to
consider as possible in the first place. He spends a lot of time and
effort arguing for total centralized control over the client
but he lost that argument the day he considered CVS in the first place,
except of course he had a taste of CVS before it was split into a
client&server application and he seems to still long for the bad old
days of a monolithic single program.
No, I don't really want total control over all client operations. But
I would like more opportunities for the server to say "no". And in the
specific case of "cvs add" it would be useful to warn the user earlier
that certain classes of errors have been detected and that he might
consider changing directions before it becomes a problem.
Sergei is right -- Paul should only give his users dumb terminals and
should require them to login directly to his central development
so that he can control every keystroke his users make.
That's an exaggeration. I really don't want to control every
keystroke. I just want to keep them on the path they've agreed to
take, because it's easier to stay there than to wander off and find the
Paul Sander | "To do two things at once is to do neither"
address@hidden | Publilius Syrus, Roman philosopher, 100 B.C.