Re: a better convert-ly

[Erik Sandberg]

On Thursday 16 December 2004 22.30, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
> address@hidden writes:
> > This point is probably obvious to programmers, but since my complaint
> > started this, I'd like to make sure it's clear: what's really required
> > is
> > a computer-upgradable syntax, not a stable syntax.  A stable syntax
> > would be nice (in that we wouldn't have to spend time updating
> > convert-ly), but that doesn't need to be the main goal.
>
> Yes - unfortunately, computer-upgradable syntax is hard to
> do. Generally, people want to retain their whitespace, comments and
> identfiers. When a .ly file is parsed, that information is thrown
> away.  Even if we keep it, for complex upgrades (the kind that
> convert-ly doesn't handle), that information will be difficult to
> retain.

Aha - this raises another alternative. Give the users 2 choices: Either use 
the regexp-based convert-ly, which conserves the whitespace/comments but may 
require post-editing, or use the uber-convert-ly which destroys 
whitespace/comments but always works.

> > If I (or mutopia, or whoever) has to run convert-ly on a 10-year old
> > file and wait for two minutes while convert-ly updates the file, that's
> > no problem.  The only problem is if we need to run convert-ly and
> > then edit the result manually.
>
> The problem that I see is that writing such a nice converter can
> easily take months of developer time, which will not be put into
> better typesetting features. That's a dear price to pay for saving a
> little work.
>
> The syntax of basic music input hasn't changed appreciably since
> lilypond-2.0. For the future, we have plans to build a GNOME-based GUI
> for tweaking, which completely separates out tweaks into different
> files.  I don't really see what else we can do.

I didn't yet get any response to my ideas about outputting an intermediate 
format.. does this mean it's a bad idea?

> Although I sympathize with Graham's frustrations over hand-editing
> files, I don't understand the real problem, other than the fact that
> LilyPond 1.6 syntax sucked, so we had to change it - which is why A)
> we have much better syntax in 2.4 B) there is a painful conversion
> process necessary.

I would still say that I have concerns about future compatibility. Apart from 
grace note notation, which might need a non-convert-ly-able syntax upgrade 
(?), it is also possible that the lyrics system would need a big update in 
far-future.

I do not want to criticise the current \lyricsto system much; it is good, 
covers everything a normal person needs, and it works fine for me. It is just 
that I have a feeling that there should exist a better way of notating 
lyrics. Concerns include:
- Lyrics have durations when \lyricsto is used. This is unused information and 
hence slightly unclean in some sense.
- It is difficult to do \lyricsto sequentially (like {\lyricsto A { bla } 
\lyricsto B { blob } })
- I sometimes have a feeling that the system for ignoring melismata could be 
done nicer. I don't have any concrete suggestion right now though.
- It would be nice to be able to do multi-stanza as in the attached png (which 
is post-edited lily output). I suppose that this could require an enormous 
amount of work for very little gain (so far I'm the only person who requested 
it, and there are very few scores where I would use it myself).

I want to stress again that these are concerns for far far future, I don't 
seriously think they are needed anytime soon. It's just to demonstrate that 
syntax still can need to change.

Erik

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