Re: Terminology of baseMoment, beats, groups

[Urs Liska]

Am 11.11.2017 um 13:15 schrieb David Kastrup:
> Urs Liska <address@hidden> writes:
>
> > Am 11.11.2017 um 12:30 schrieb David Kastrup:
> > > I find "grouping" without "beat" fine.  I could have been responsible
> > > for the terminology in the code (pretty sure I wasn't, but it matches
> > > the terminology I use quite better).
> > >
> > > Now I have certainly not gotten an English music education, so can
> > > someone who did chime in?
> > I haven't either, but I can refer to Gould's terminology. While we all
> > agree that no single engraving book provides "the truth", it is surely
> > a good idea to match her terminology, if only to be able to
> > communicate with users/developers of other programs.
> >
> > She says: "Divisions of a beat are beamed together in all metres." and
> > states 2/4, 6/8, and 2/2 as metres of 2 beats. (p. 153, "Beaming
> > according to the metre")
> I'd be interested in her take on the terminology for uneven
> subdivisions, like the 3+3+2 used these days in tango.

Unfortunately she doesn't explicitly uses *words* for this kind of 
metres ...

> > 3/2, and 9/16 are given as examples of metres of 3 beats.
> >
> > So it's clear that her terminology matches that of beatStructure,
> > "beat" = "beat" and "baseMoment" = "Division of a beat".
> >
> > The example I gave is also present in her examples (p. 155), other
> > examples of metres with beats of different lengths include 5/16 (2+3
> > or 3+2) and 7/8.
> Ah, ok.

... but this can implicitly be taken as a confirmation that she also 
considers irregular groupings as "beats".

> > So I think we can safely say the terminology of beatStructure is
> > correct (or at least acceptable).
> >
> > "Beat" also refers to what a conductor would do. the 3+3+2 from my
> > example would be given as three "beats" by the conductor. Maybe your
> > perception of "beat" as necessarily regular comes from the fact that
> > in German we use "beat" too, but usually referring to specific styles
> > that are limited to regular beats ...
> I actually perform quite a bit in 4/4 with a basic rhythm of { 4. 4. 4
> }, but I've never heard anybody refer to the last quarter as the "third
> beat" when directing musicians where to start.

Of course I don't really know what kind of music you are referring to, 
but I have the impression that you mean 2/2 music that is actually in 
two beats, and the grouping is not a metric, but a rhythmic issue.

If you have music like the examples given in 
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/notation/beams#index-measure-groupings 
I can tell you that orchestra musicians and conductors would refer to 
that as beats. E.g. "The a' on the fourth beat of the second 9/8 measure".

Here comes another inconsistency, now within one NR page. This section 
states that the measure_grouping_engraver creates signs for groups that 
are created from beatStructure, i.e. from the "beats" in the 
beatStructure ...