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Re: tie over clef change
From: |
Hans Åberg |
Subject: |
Re: tie over clef change |
Date: |
Mon, 28 Sep 2020 10:57:15 +0200 |
> On 28 Sep 2020, at 00:26, Lukas-Fabian Moser <lfm@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>>> However, this gets *never* notated as such.
>>>
>> I gave the example of augment sixth chords, that seem to never be notated as
>> diminished sevenths.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augmented_sixth_chord
> I assume you meant "dominant sevenths"?
Right. Typo.
> (Augmented sixth chords, at least "Italian" and "German" augmented sixths,
> are identical to dominant sevenths without or with fifth on a modern
> keyboard, e.g. c-e-[g]-a♯ vs. c-e-[g]-b♭, but none of them yield diminished
> sevenths.)
They are equal in E12, but not in the staff system or in an orchestra.
> But anyway, I'm not sure that your statement holds true invariably: I'm
> pretty sure that in late 19th century composers like Bruckner, the difference
> between both chords becomes blurry. I will see if I can find an example,
> maybe even older than Bruckner.
Some composers though seem to be careful about the difference, and it is a bit
curious why.
> On a related but different note, I always found it funny how certain editors
> of Mozart's Requiem, of all things, tried to "improve" Mozart's
> chromatic/enharmonic spelling. See the old Peters vocal scores on IMSLP at
> the end of the "Confutatis maledictis"
>
> <oeehcojnehmnfcpd.png>
>
> vs. the original Mozart spelling (which Süßmayr preserved faithfully):
>
> <bggdfflenejgmfad.png>
Because of such a practise, one would have to go back to originals or use
Urtext which have footnotes about the changes.
> I would not claim that this change generates any measurable difference in
> what the musicians actually play and sing, but I imagine it changes the way
> they _think_ their lines.
This is an important point, I think. One should notate the musical intent, not
merely as a line of notes. For example, ornaments do not necessarily become
clearer if written out explicitly, but the converse may happen.
There is a difference between the type of music: Jazz is pretty much E12, and
the Mehegan Jazz Improvisation books use enharmonic equivalents without
discrimination, if I remember it correctly.
> In particular, I like Mozart's notation for the clarity with which he
> expresses that he uses the diminished seventh as a triple-leading tone
> neighbour to the ensuing dominant seventh - not to mention the fact that this
> exact device is all over the place in the second half of the Confutatis, and
> it's frankly silly to change it just once, only to avoid a double flat...
I did try to measure a dominant 7th chord in some Beethoven's orchestral work,
I think it was, and from what I could see, they just play stacked thirds. Not
the 7th partial, as has been suggested. Also, I used to play along with a
meantone tuning with some Balkan piece, it may have been a Paidushko with Petko
Radev on clarinet, and I found that it did not blend well. So when I measured
the clarinet, I found it was a comma off, suggesting he is playing in
Pythagorean tuning.
As for spelling, the violin pizzicato in the tune below is in F♯ harmonic
minor, so when written out, one gets an E♯, not an F. If one plays along with
an E12 instrument, it sounds a bit of tune, even adjusted for pitch as it is an
original analog recording. I originally thought it might be because of the
pizzicato, which stretches the octave, but perhaps it is because there are no
other good pitch references on the violins.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvSNAfSaezk&list=PLJ2I_U9XF3oDMwyVjAULrShxZKWlmHOGy&index=6
- Re: tie over clef change, (continued)
- Re: tie over clef change, Benkő Pál, 2020/09/28
- Re: tie over clef change, Lukas-Fabian Moser, 2020/09/28
- Re: tie over clef change, Hans Åberg, 2020/09/27
- Re: tie over clef change, David Kastrup, 2020/09/27
- Re: tie over clef change, Hans Åberg, 2020/09/27
- Re: tie over clef change, Kevin Barry, 2020/09/27
- Re: tie over clef change, Hans Åberg, 2020/09/27
- Re: tie over clef change, Werner LEMBERG, 2020/09/27
- Re: tie over clef change, Hans Åberg, 2020/09/27
- Re: tie over clef change, Lukas-Fabian Moser, 2020/09/27
- Re: tie over clef change,
Hans Åberg <=
- Re: tie over clef change, David Kastrup, 2020/09/27
- Re: tie over clef change, Aaron Hill, 2020/09/26
Re: tie over clef change, Jean Abou Samra, 2020/09/26
Re: tie over clef change, Andrew Bernard, 2020/09/26
Re: tie over clef change, Jean Abou Samra, 2020/09/26
Re: tie over clef change, Hans Åberg, 2020/09/26
Re: tie over clef change, Jean Abou Samra, 2020/09/27