Re:F7 chord appearing as E#7 when I transpose (Paul> Scott)

[Robert Glover]

Hi,
      I apologize for breaking the thread.  I'm still getting the hang of the 
proper etiquette of this very valuable forum.
     Maybe what I'm trying to do is simply too ambitious.  I actually have 
three separate musical projects.  One project is to convert to LP 900 songs for 
a friend who is a jazz composer; that is fairly straightforward because I 
simply place them in the key he wrote them in.  The second project is to create 
lead sheets of popular songs for my singing teacher; this is the difficult 
project because she cannot transpose, so my hope was to provide her each lead 
sheet 12 times, once in each key;  I was hoping to be able to do that whilst 
maintaining a single lead sheet for each song and "merely" transposing that 
single lead sheet into the 12 keys;  that is the case where the enharmonics of 
the chords becomes a really big issue. The third case is for my own use, in 
which case I only need it in one different key, in which case your suggestion 
to transpose different sections differently works fine because I can "tune" the 
original music so that it transposes
 well into the single key I then transpose it into.
      I will try to learn more about the SCHEME language so I can better 
understand the SCHEME hack I was first pointed to.  Another avenue I would like 
to pursue is creating my own fonts for chords.  I don't know where to begin 
however, so if anyone has pointers on how to start, I would appreciate it.
regards
Robert

----- Original Message ----
From: Paul Scott <address@hidden>
To: Robert Glover <address@hidden>
Cc: address@hidden
Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2008 12:29:16 AM
Subject: Re: F7 chord appearing as E#7 when I transpose (Paul Scott)

Robert Glover wrote:
>    I'm the (newbie) person whose post instigated this thread.  I faithfully 
> applied the advice given, but alas the result was not satisfactory.  The lead 
> sheet is a classic example of the worst possible case: 
(snip)


>    Anyway, thank you very much for the timely suggestion.  I do appreciate it 
> even though so far it's not working for me.
> 
My workaround for this is to divide the chord (or melody in some of my
cases) section into parts as necessary and transpose them individually.

For example the chord fis2:m7 transposed as \transpose c cf fis2:m7
should give you what you want.  I didn't test this but some enharmonic
combination giving a half step should work.

HTH

Paul

BTW you broke the thread somehow.  Did you use the Reply button?



--- On Sat, 6/14/08, address@hidden <address@hidden> wrote:

> From: address@hidden <address@hidden>
> Subject: lilypond-user Digest, Vol 67, Issue 48
> To: address@hidden
> Date: Saturday, June 14, 2008, 4:45 AM
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> digest..."Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re:Divisi and Unison (Francisco Vila)
>    2. re:different rehearsal mark settings in score and
> parts (hhpmusic)
>    3. Re:F7 chord appearing as E#7 when I transpose (Paul
> Scott)
>       (Robert Glover)
>    4. Re:F7 chord appearing as E#7 when I transpose (Paul
> Scott)
>       (Paul Scott)
>    5. an innocent's query :) (Bill Mooney)
>    6. Re:Syntax explanations (James E. Bailey)
>    7. Re:an innocent's query :) (David
> Bobroff)2008/6/14 Kieren MacMillan
> <address@hidden>:
> > You might start with the following:
> >
> >    arrow = \markup { \fontsize #5
> \override #'(thickness . 3) \combine
> > \draw-line #'(0 . 4) \arrow-head #Y #DOWN
> ##t }
> >    \markup { \combine \raise #-1
> \rotate #45 \arrow \raise #1 \rotate #135
> > \arrow }
> 
> Great!
> 
> Here goes another (uglier) starting point:
> 
> % start
> 
> psarrows = #"
>       1 setlinecap
>       .6 setlinewidth
>       3 -0.5 translate
>       .3 .3 scale
>       0 0 moveto
>       5 5 lineto
>       -2 0 rlineto
>       5 5 moveto
>       0 -2 rlineto
>       0 0 moveto
>       5 -5 lineto
>       0 2 rlineto
>       5 -5 moveto
>       -2 0 rlineto stroke"
> 
> arrows = \markup { \postscript #psarrows }
> 
> { c'1-\arrows }
> 
> % end
> -- 
> Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
> http://www.paconet.orgI'm the (newbie) person whose
> post instigated this thread.  I faithfully applied the
> advice given, but alas the result was not satisfactory. 
> The lead sheet is a classic example of the worst possible
> case:  The "A" section starts with I VI  II V. 
> The "B" section transposes the "A"
> section into the key of III, then transposes the 
> "A" section into the key of "IV".  That
> worst possible case makes the transposition into keys with
> four or more sharps look terrible because, for example, in
> the key of "B major "  the "B" section
> has chord "E#m7".  While a purist might argue
> that is the correct representation, it is completely
> unacceptable to give a lead sheet with that chord to a
> member of a jazz group because instant, fast sight reading
> is required in jazz. It must be notated as Fm7.
>    When I used the clever Scheme technique recommended, it
> could not handle this worst possible case song. 
> Specifically, in the part of the "B" section that
> is the "A" section transposed into the key of III,
> it turned the  "E#m7" into an
> "F#6/sus#2" and it changed an "A#7"
> into a "A#7bb6/susb4".  However in the part of
> the "B" section where it transposed the
> "A" section into the key of IV it did it
> perfectly, rendering the chords as F7m7 and b7.
>    I do appreciate the suggestion I received, but I do not
> want to leave the impression it worked for me because
> clearly my needs have not been filled here.
>    To paraphrase my jazz piano teacher,  what is ultimately
> needed here is a "jazz mode" where it can be
> specified as an inviolable rule that an E# chord is always
> rendered as an F chord, a B# chord is always rendered as a
> "C" chord. My jazz teacher was uncertain about
> whether a Cb chord should always be rendered as a
> "B" chord.  He thought about it and finally
> decided he thought it should be always rendered as a
> "B" chord.  This is a need for jazz musicians,
> not for classical musicians.
>    Anyway, thank you very much for the timely suggestion. 
> I do appreciate it even though so far it's not working
> for me.
> 
> >> Since the same request has appeared for ordinary
> notes, some clever Scheme
> >> hackers have
> >> made a function that automatically gets rid of the
> extra accidentals by
> >> enharmonically rewriting the
> >> music.
> 
> >Dumb question: are we sure we still do need the
> ordinary \transpose?
> 
> >If not, may be we could make it "smarter" by
> implementing the snippet
> >as a default code... (possibly keeping the current
> function as an
> >\old-transpose command for backwards
> compatibility?)
> 
> >Or is it likely to break many many many things?
> 
> >Cheers,
> >ValentinRobert Glover wrote:
> >    I'm the (newbie) person whose post instigated
> this thread.  I faithfully applied the advice given, but
> alas the result was not satisfactory.  The lead sheet is a
> classic example of the worst possible case:  
> (snip)
> 
> 
> >    Anyway, thank you very much for the timely
> suggestion.  I do appreciate it even though so far it's
> not working for me.
> >   
> My workaround for this is to divide the chord (or melody in
> some of my
> cases) section into parts as necessary and transpose them
> individually.
> 
> For example the chord fis2:m7 transposed as \transpose
> c cf fis2:m7
> should give you what you want.  I didn't test this but
> some enharmonic
> combination giving a half step should work.
> 
> HTH
> 
> Paul
> 
> BTW you broke the thread somehow.  Did you use the Reply
> button?Greetings All,
> I am a newcomer to the list, and to Lilypond.
> Notwithstanding this I am 
> finding LP very satisfying to use and am currently setting
> some 
> hand-notation music for a friend - from which activity
> rises my query.
> Would it be worthwhile to consider changing the way LP
> 'reads' its input 
> files to allow the use of UpperCase letters for the notes?
> It seems to me, in my innocence, that this would allow,
> amongst other 
> things,  a change to the way sharps/flats etc are dealt
> with ( eg Aa = 
> A-sharp, aA = A-flat, and other one-key-strokes for
> quarter-tones, etc, 
> etc... ), and might lead to dropping the need for the
> various 'language' 
> include files. It would also make global replacements of
> one particular 
> note very easy (if perhaps in notating handwritten score by
> someone who 
> is not very accurate in their note placement! ).
> Regards
> BillAm 13.06.2008 um 23:17 schrieb Graham Percival:
> 
> > On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 22:46:57 +0200
> > Reinhold Kainhofer <address@hidden>
> wrote:
> >
> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >> Hash: SHA1
> >>
> >> Am Donnerstag, 12. Juni 2008 schrieb Graham
> Percival:
> >>> On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 06:22:44 -0600
> >>>
> >>> "Carl D. Sorensen"
> <address@hidden> wrote:
> >>>> A figured bass entry [TODO: enter correct
> term...] is of the form
> >>>>   < //number//modifier(s) ... 
> >duration
> >>>
> >>> I'm not wild about discussing the standard
> chord notation
> >>> < ... >duration
> >>> but the below table would be totally ok.
> >>
> >> Ah, thanks for pointing out that figured bass
> figures actually use
> >> the chord notation! To me, it was simply the
> syntax for figured bass
> >> and never occured to me that it was connected to
> chord syntax in any
> >> way.
> >
> > This *should* be clear in the GDP docs, but I'm
> not certain if it
> > was added or not.  Could you check, and tell Carl if
> it's not
> > added?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > - Graham
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > lilypond-user mailing list
> > address@hidden
> > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
> 
> 
> FWIW, I just started using figuredbassmode a couple of
> weeks ago, so  
> it was the first time I looked at that documentation, and
> it was clear  
> to me that it was chord notation.Bill Mooney wrote:
> > Greetings All,
> > I am a newcomer to the list, and to Lilypond.
> Notwithstanding this I am 
> > finding LP very satisfying to use and am currently
> setting some 
> > hand-notation music for a friend - from which activity
> rises my query.
> > Would it be worthwhile to consider changing the way LP
> 'reads' its input 
> > files to allow the use of UpperCase letters for the
> notes?
> > It seems to me, in my innocence, that this would
> allow, amongst other 
> > things,  a change to the way sharps/flats etc are
> dealt with ( eg Aa = 
> > A-sharp, aA = A-flat, and other one-key-strokes for
> quarter-tones, etc, 
> > etc... ), and might lead to dropping the need for the
> various 'language' 
> > include files. It would also make global replacements
> of one particular 
> > note very easy (if perhaps in notating handwritten
> score by someone who 
> > is not very accurate in their note placement! ).
> > Regards
> > Bill
> 
> I'm hardly an expert in these matters but some things
> do occur to me 
> regarding your question.
> 
> As for eliminating the 'need' for language include
> files; These were 
> created, I presume, to facilitate note entry for people who
> learned 
> different note naming conventions.  I'm American and
> learned B-flat, 
> C-sharp, etc.  I also lived in Spain for a year and had to
> learn the 
> Spanish note names.  Now I find myself in Iceland where the
> note naming 
> convention is the same as in German for the most part (one
> school 
> teaches what is, essentially, the Dutch naming convention).
>  I simply 
> use the Dutch naming convention because I find it very
> compact and 
> consistent.*  Having these language options eliminates the
> need for a 
> user to learn a different note naming convention.
> 
> As for changing the input note naming convention; I see no
> reason why 
> you couldn't create your own 'language' file
> based on your desire to use 
> upper-case note names.  Simply open one of the language
> input files 
> (~\LilyPond\usr\share\lilypond\current\ly\)
> and make a new copy and then 
> edit it to suit your needs.  In fact, even the default
> (Dutch) is a 
> 'language include' file.  It's simply the
> default.  I would be surprised 
> if it were not possible to change the default.
> 
> As for easing global replacements of errors I'm not
> convinced it would 
> offer much of an improvement.  There would doubtless be
> instances of 
> other text which could be affected by global replacements.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> David
> 
> *Dutch and German differ in the naming of the B's:
> 
> English               Dutch           German
> B-flat                bes             b
> B             b               h
> B-sharp               bis             
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