Re: Discrepancy in documentation,

[David Stocker]

I think I'm having trouble understanding the syntax and what effect it 
has on the intervals LilyPond produces. When I see "m5" for example, my 
mind tells me "minor 5th" which is unlikely of course. In Western music, 
5ths are either perfect, augmented or diminished.

With that being said, I'll assume that "m5" means "minor 3rd, perfect 
fifth" which is what I see it corresponding to in the music.

Now, about the chord qualities and naming conventions, this is what I see:

  1. c:maj7m5 produces a minor triad with a major 7th, written
     "Cm(maj7)" in my experience.
  2. c:m5maj7 prints a minor seventh chord, usually written "Cm7".
     There is nothing major about that second chord, so I think that
     syntax is wholly confusing. Should it be "c:m5m7" which produces
     that result?
  3. c:dim5m7 produces a minor seventh flat fifth chord, sometimes
     termed "half-diminished" and usually written "Cm7b5" (where the
     flat symbol is substituted for the 'b'). Sometimes, this chord is
     written with 'C' followed by the degree symbol with a little slash
     through it.
  4. c:m7dim5 produces a chord that I don't think there is a common
     name for--a minor triad with a diminished 7th. With my editor cap
     on, I'd write this as "Cm(addb7)"

> is there really a difference between a minor triad with added major 
> 7th or a major 7th with a minor triad? 

That depends on how it's understood by the person you're telling it to. 
When most pop/rock/jazz musicians hear 'major 7th' (when talking 
chords), they will play a major triad with a major 7th. The chord Cmaj7 
and every 'maj' chord that comes after (i.e. maj9, maj11, maj13) takes 
the major triad to be understood. Cmaj9 takes the major triad and major 
7th to be understood, and so forth.

Now if you say "major 7th with a minor triad," I suppose some could take 
that to mean play a 'maj7' chord *and* a minor triad, giving the notes 
C, E-flat, E-natural, G and B (although, any chord with an E-flat and 
E-natural, the E-flat is usually shown as a D-sharp, which would be 
called a 'sharp ninth'. For example the E7#9 chord of "Purple Haze" 
fame: E, G-sharp, D and F-double-sharp).

I hope this makes things more clear instead of more confusing.

Dave


Simon Bailey wrote:
> hi,
>
> On Dec 15, 2008, at 8:48 PM, Trevor Daniels wrote:
> > I've fixed the original error identified by David, added the
> > default Dominant thirteenth, and replaced some TODOs with what
> > I hope are correct chord descriptions.  On this latter point
> > could you please check I've done this correctly, as my knowledge
> > of interval naming conventions is not as reliable as I'd like.
> > The changes should appear on the kainhofer server on Tuesday.
>
>
> minor nitpick, which is probably my fault:
>
> we have a half-diminished seventh with the modifier "dim5m7" and a 
> minor-major seventh with the modifier "maj7m5". i think that may be a 
> bit confusing.
>
> but just while testing, i found out that the order of the modifier 
> constructs is important. this is even more confusing – at least to me. 
> (either that or i need more coffee). is there really a difference 
> between a minor triad with added major 7th or a major 7th with a minor 
> triad?
>
> \chordmode {
> c1:maj7m5 c:m5maj7 c:dim5m7 c:m7dim5
> }
>
> gives the attached png.
>
> that's the only issue i have, everything else looks correct. otherwise 
> thanks to trevor for the prompt change.
>
> regards,
> sb
> --
> Simon Bailey
> Oompa Loompa of Science
> +43 699 190 631 25
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------