Re: [Paparazzi-devel] Re : diydrones.com: PAPARAZZI UAV ON PIXHAWK TEASER

[Hector Garcia de Marina]

David made his point indeed. It is a fact that DIYDrones is mostly the house of Ardupilot and later on 3DR (as Felix pointed it seems that now they are in some kind of "divorce").

However this is not about DIYDrones, their policy, culture or nationality. It is much more simple.

Imagine that somebody posts in this mailing list that X is better than PPZ on the ground of Linux vs Windows (or Barcelona vs Real Madrid). The guy signs in the name of X organization/group and it does not seems a fake.

What would you expect from that?

- In my case (and most of the people here I would say), I would not feel annoyed. I just will ignore it. But if the community is sufficiently big for sure there will be people that will feel annoyed. This is not a surprise in whatever forum you consider.

- If I belonged to such X group as an active member and somebody signs such a post on my behalf... well, I will feel annoyed for sure, since I will feel obligate to apologize in the forum. Nevertheless, I guess this is enough as a mature person will understand the situation.

No one should every had strong feelings about anything I write. Ever.

I will promise to work on that.

I must admit I'm torn now about Paparazzi. I feel there is now a

Paparazzi looking for financial success measured in units sold,

paychecks, business success and a Paparazzi I knew that seemed

indifferent to these measures and just existed to exist. I seem to

align more with the one that just wants to exist.

I cannot follow this logic. Of course there are people that try to make a business (why not?) from PPZ, but I do not see the other direction: Businesses are making PPZ?

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 9:26 AM, Felix Ruess <address@hidden> wrote:

Ok, that helps me understand it. It seemed very personal.

Sorry, I should have been more clear that the first two paragraphs were a reply to your post instead of just keep going on about the DIY drones post.
So the beginning was a reply to your remark why one would want to interact DIY drones.

And it has nothing to do with getting someone's blessing.
 

I saw that OP on DIY and had no strong feelings at all about the OP
message. I really am surprised anyone has such strong feelings about
it. I didn't.

OP?

I'm just annoyed that aggressive, boisterous and non-factual stuff is written in the whole Paparazzi team name.
That is what the rest of my previous message was about and it referred to the Pixhawk teaser DIY post.

Everyone is free to voice their opinion under their own name, although I'd much prefer if discussion wouldn't take such a tone.

No one should every had strong feelings about anything I write. Ever.
I will promise to work on that.

I must admit I'm torn now about Paparazzi. I feel there is now a
Paparazzi looking for financial success measured in units sold,
paychecks, business success and a Paparazzi I knew that seemed
indifferent to these measures and just existed to exist. I seem to
align more with the one that just wants to exist.

That's a strange leap... how do you come to that conclusion?
 

David

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 3:19 PM, Felix Ruess <address@hidden> wrote:
> I guess my post is mostly a general statement as opposed to a direct reply
> to your message...
>
> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:14 AM, David Conger <address@hidden>
> wrote:
>>
>> Let me be direct.
>> There is the Left, the Right and the middle. I seek always the middle.
>> Am I a human who falls short absolutely. Hence I am trying to be very
>> direct.
>> -David
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 3:11 PM, David Conger <address@hidden>
>> wrote:
>> > Felix,
>> > There must be a translation error here. Maybe something to learn like
>> > we did from the DIY post.
>> > David
>> >
>> > On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 2:43 PM, Felix Ruess <address@hidden>
>> > wrote:
>> >> David,
>> >>
>> >> I don't believe that...
>> >>
>> >> There are lots of great people and projects out there (and yes that
>> >> includes
>> >> the DIY drones crowd!).
>> >> And most of them don't have financial goals in mind, but rather are
>> >> Open
>> >> Source Enthusiasts as well!
>> >> They make cool stuff and share it with the world, just like us... isn't
>> >> that
>> >> enough?
>> >>
>> >> And just because there was some bad blood in a few DIY drones
>> >> discussions in
>> >> the past, that doesn't mean that goes for everyone there or that is has
>> >> to
>> >> continue in that vein.
>> >> Why should the interaction with other people sharing the same passions
>> >> (Drones) that just happen to use other hardware/software be be avoided?
>> >> If the discussions are conducted on an open minded and friendly level
>> >> everyone benefits!
>> >>
>> >> I can't blame anyone for being upset or irritated by the post, since I
>> >> am
>> >> too!
>> >>
>> >> Let's please just try not to go down the road of insinuations,
>> >> boisterous
>> >> claims and weird comparisons. Stay on the level of actual facts.
>> >>
>> >> There is already enough subtext/context lost in textual communication,
>> >> so
>> >> everyone should take extra care with the tone of messages.
>> >> Also the other way round: it's easy to read something into a message
>> >> that
>> >> wasn't intended by the poster, so if in doubt err on the positive/nice
>> >> side.
>> >>
>> >> Flame wars, more or less hidden accusations and angry messages don't
>> >> benefit
>> >> anyone and are just totally counter-productive and tiresome. We should
>> >> all
>> >> hold ourselves to higher standards than that. And often we just have to
>> >> agree that we disagree on things... and that's fine.
>> >>
>> >> I feel the Paparazzi UAV community is a generally a very friendly,
>> >> helpful
>> >> and open minded bunch and we should conduct ourselves in that way
>> >> regardless
>> >> with whom we interact.
>> >>
>> >> Just my 2 cents...
>> >>
>> >> Cheers, Felix
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 10:46 PM, David Conger <address@hidden>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Interesting, I just read the DIY posts.
>> >>> My first reaction though is not a surprise. Ardupilot people are
>> >>> easily upset and predominately Americans who are easily upset. As an
>> >>> American who has traveled extensively I see it very clearly now.
>> >>>
>> >>> Having met the TUDelft people personally I know they would have no
>> >>> intention of posting anything in a way to upset anyone. I'm taken back
>> >>> really the depths the mob came out to burn the orig. poster at the
>> >>> stake for the well intended but badly translated message.
>> >>>
>> >>> I have been burned many times at the stake by the same mob over the
>> >>> years since 2007. The posts that were not deleted off DIYDrones site
>> >>> remain on RCGroups.com site. Anything critical, even implied via the
>> >>> reader not writer, is attacked with venom. Just their way. I don't
>> >>> judge them as bad I only know you must handle them with extreme care.
>> >>>
>> >>> I will say, even offer, that English is my first language and I have
>> >>> been at this since 2007 watching and interacting with all the major
>> >>> players online. I know this group well from personal experiences. On
>> >>> RCGroups from the very top of 3DR and DIY they monitor the threads and
>> >>> redirect all new posters over to DIY websites where the content is
>> >>> strictly controlled to be pro Ardupilot and 3DR.
>> >>>
>> >>> If the mob had turned against DIY or 3DR the thread would be quickly
>> >>> closed, content removed/edited. There's a long history of that there.
>> >>> It is why I really hesitate to go there or post there. RCGroups is a
>> >>> much friendlier place to have non-3DR non-Ardupilot related discussion
>> >>> but just expect the usual redirection posts saying to go to DIYDrones
>> >>> site by those monitoring and wanting more business driven over to
>> >>> there. It gets hostile there also but it's a lot better than DIY.
>> >>>
>> >>> The bigger question to be asked I think is why do we continue to want
>> >>> the blessing of DIY? By every measure I think matters Paparazzi
>> >>> Project is a huge global success. So why would something so obviously
>> >>> successful on every measure other than financial to go there to
>> >>> interact with them? I encourage everyone in the developer's list to
>> >>> realize this success requires no affirmation from that mob. The only
>> >>> place financial success is glorified is in America and nothing
>> >>> reinforces that like what you see happen in that post. There is a
>> >>> saying, belief in America that the only truly sacred thing is someones
>> >>> financial position. Never attack someones paycheck or ability to grow
>> >>> theirs. When an American feels that threatened look out.
>> >>>
>> >>> Why do I write this?  Well, same reason I am still here. Why I still
>> >>> would hand solder Paparazzi hardware in quantities of 1,2,3 or so for
>> >>> zero profit. Because I do not need affirmation from anyone it's the
>> >>> right thing to do or that I'm a success measured in dollars. I feel
>> >>> very successful to still offer myself and Paparazzi hardware to anyone
>> >>> even if they only want a single one. PPZUAV (my company) is
>> >>> self-funded and always will be. Sure, once a long time ago there was
>> >>> that window of opportunity before DIY corporation was born but I have
>> >>> no regrets keeping PPZUAV completely under my control and financially
>> >>> independent. I have zero debt. I always have, personally and the
>> >>> company.
>> >>>
>> >>> I want never at any time to make choices aimed only at financial gain
>> >>> or ego. I see the mess it causes and how financial success is an empty
>> >>> path unless it is found by accident or as a secondary unintended
>> >>> consequence of just being very good at what you do. Meaning to be
>> >>> financially successful simply by doing what is correct and right
>> >>> morally and for the planet is a very good thing and I endorse it
>> >>> completely. However, to have a company created only to make a profit
>> >>> is a difficult path with much peril for those who walk it. I make no
>> >>> condemnation of anyone doing it.
>> >>>
>> >>> In my eyes the core that started Paparazzi is still alive as a
>> >>> separate thing that has no consideration for monetary gain. Everyone
>> >>> who does Paparazzi should have another source of income to keep this
>> >>> separation. Paparazzi by just existing still after all these years is
>> >>> the truest form of affirmation. I really encourage all involved to
>> >>> think hard about real success and focus on encouraging each other and
>> >>> helping each other because no one from 3DR or DIY will ever seem to
>> >>> change. I just had a friend tell me they read in WIred Magazine that a
>> >>> person we all know claims they invented the drone revolution...no not
>> >>> Al Gore but you're getting warm. ;)
>> >>>
>> >>> The best way to grow Paparazzi is to continue doing what you do and
>> >>> know that success matters in what you do not what you say or how much
>> >>> profit you make doing it. This is to me a wonderful chance to stop and
>> >>> look at each other, smile and be happy we have each other and look to
>> >>> so many more years of success in research, sciences, and thing that
>> >>> matter for the planet that needs us more than ever right now. Do not
>> >>> seek anything from DIY crowd as it's an empty path to join or be a
>> >>> part of something that measures success purely as units sold and
>> >>> dollars made.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 9:28 AM, address@hidden
>> >>> <address@hidden> wrote:
>> >>> > Strange post. Seems to come from Delft, did someone get into contact
>> >>> > with
>> >>> > them? If we make a global reply, you can add my name to the signing
>> >>> > if
>> >>> > needed. Unfortunately I don't have much internet access time.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Gautier
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Envoyé depuis mon mobile Orange
>> >>> >
>> >>> > ----- Reply message -----
>> >>> > De : "Alexandre Bustico" <address@hidden>
>> >>> > Pour : "Paparazzi UAV devel list" <address@hidden>
>> >>> > Objet : [Paparazzi-devel] diydrones.com: PAPARAZZI UAV ON PIXHAWK
>> >>> > TEASER
>> >>> > Date : mer., mars 2, 2016 15:43
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Le 02/03/2016 15:38, Felix Ruess a écrit :
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Definitely not endorsed by myself...
>> >>> > It really shouldn't say "The Paparazzi dev team" as it doesn't
>> >>> > reflect
>> >>> > the
>> >>> > view of every dev member/contributor, certainly not mine!
>> >>> >
>> >>> > On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Martin Mueller <address@hidden>
>> >>> > wrote:
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Nice to see support for Pixhawk
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/paparazziuav-org-on-pixhawk-teaser
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> But why advertise it so aggressively, almost dumb? Who wrote that,
>> >>> >> why
>> >>> >> does it
>> >>> >> say "The Paparazzi dev team"?
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> _
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Probably written after to many hours or days without sleeping,
>> >>> > giving
>> >>> > some
>> >>> > excuse to the one who post.
>> >>> > Anyway, we probably, as a team, apologize for this aggressive post
>> >>> > which
>> >>> > deserve us...
>> >>> >
>> >>> > --
>> >>> > Alexandre
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > _______________________________________________
>> >>> > Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>> >>> > address@hidden
>> >>> > https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> address@hidden
>> >>> http://www.ppzuav.com
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Paparazzi-devel mailing list
>> >>> address@hidden
>> >>> https://lists.nongnu.org/mailman/listinfo/paparazzi-devel
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > address@hidden
>> > http://www.ppzuav.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> address@hidden
>> http://www.ppzuav.com
>>
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Héctor