Proposal: fi.po for fileutils (an old issue)

[Jyrki Kuoppala]

Tor Lillqvist <address@hidden> writes, commenting on my proposed fi.po changes 
to fileutils:
> Finnish GNU/LI List writes:
> > My proposed fi.po changes the output into:
> > drwxr-xr-x    2 root     root         1460 22.02.2001 17.16 bin
> > drwxr-xr-x    5 root     root         1024 15.01.2001 11.44 boot
> > drwxr-xr-x    2 root     root         1460 to 22.02.2001 17.16.19 bin
> > drwxr-xr-x    5 root     root         1024 ma 15.01.2001 11.44.23 boot

> Even if the 22.02.2001 format is the one most commonly used in
> Finland, and I don't have anything against it when used for isolated
> dates, I do think that it is stupid to use it here. Exactly in
> contexts like directory listings the ISO standard format 2001-02-22 is
> the most logical to use. Compare this output from ls -lt:

> -rw-r--r--   1 tml      513         18194 2001-02-25 18:32 NEWS
> -rw-r--r--   1 tml      513             0 2001-02-21 16:16 config.cache
> -rwxr-xr-x   1 tml      513        228525 2001-02-20 22:37 configure~
> -rwxr-xr-x   1 tml      513        150000 2001-02-20 22:22 libtool~
> drwxr-xr-x   4 tml      513             0 2001-02-15 19:57 libltdl
> drwxr-xr-x   3 tm

I agree that Tor is right, the ISO format is better in the context of ls -l.
Here's the modified fi.po:

------------------------------
# Finnish messages for fileutils.
# Copyright © 2001 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
#  <address@hidden>, 2001.
#
msgid ""
msgstr ""
"Project-Id-Version: fileutils 4.0t\n"
"POT-Creation-Date: 2001-10-28 12:40+0100\n"
"PO-Revision-Date: 2001-10-28 12:40+0100\n"
"Last-Translator: Jyrki Kuoppala <address@hidden>\n"
"Language-Team: Finnish <address@hidden>\n"
"MIME-Version: 1.0\n"
"Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1\n"
"Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit\n"

#: src/ls.c:1370
msgid "%a %b %d %H:%M:%S %Y"
msgstr "%a %Y-%2m-%2d %H.%M.%S"

#: src/ls.c:1373
msgid "%b %e  %Y"
msgstr "%Y-%2m-%2d %H.%M"

#: src/ls.c:1374
msgid "%b %e %H:%M"
msgstr "%Y-%2m-%2d %H.%M"
------------------------------
quotes from earlier discussion:

>Re: Proposal: fi.po for fileutils
>
>    * From: Karl Eichwalder
>    * Subject: Re: Proposal: fi.po for fileutils
>    * Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 07:15:16 -0700
>
>[
>    Cleaning up the backlog; I don't remember whether I did already
>    process these mails.  Since
>    /usr/share/locale/fi/LC_MESSAGES/fileutils.mo is still missing on my
>    system it might be worth to talk about it again.
>    
>    Maybe, the problem was solved otherwise.  In this case, please
>    excuse my ignorance.
>
>    Full quote because ot the enlarged Cc list; some comments by me.
>]
>
>Jyrki Kuoppala <address@hidden> writes:
>> The output of ls is now:
>> > $ ls -al /
>> total 1006
>> drwxr-xr-x   23 root     root          665 helmi  21 08:59 .
>> drwxr-xr-x   23 root     root          665 helmi  21 08:59 ..
>> -rw-rw-r--    1 root     root          575 syys    9 18:10 .bash_history
>> drwxrwxr-x    2 root     root         1475 maalis  7 11:26 bin
>> drwxr-xr-x    6 root     root         1024 tammi  20 10:18 boot
>> > $ ls --full-time -al /
>> total 1006
>> drwxr-xr-x   23 root     root          665 ke helmi  21 08:59:59 2001 .
>> drwxr-xr-x   23 root     root          665 ke helmi  21 08:59:59 2001 ..
>> -rw-rw-r--    1 root     root          575 la syys   09 18:10:53 2000 
>> .bash_history
>> drwxrwxr-x    2 root     root         1475 ke maalis 07 11:26:33 2001 bin
>> drwxr-xr-x    6 root     root         1024 la tammi  20 10:18:46 2001 boot
>> drwxrwsr-x    2 root     disk          266 ti tammi  09 10:45:30 2001 
>> boot.old
>> drwxrwxr-x    2 root     cdrom          35 su touko  23 14:39:58 1999 cdro
>> > This output is grammatically quite incorrect, and against any common
>> usage in Finland.  Month names are commonly not abbreviated, but
>> instead the date format dd.mm.yyyy is used.
>> > My proposed fi.po changes the output into:
>> > $ ls -la /
>> total 139
>> drwxr-xr-x   22 root     root          604 26.01.2001 15.19 .
>> drwxr-xr-x   22 root     root          604 26.01.2001 15.19 ..
>> drwxr-xr-x    2 root     root         1460 22.02.2001 17.16 bin
>> drwxr-xr-x    5 root     root         1024 15.01.2001 11.44 boot
>> drwxr-xr-x    2 root     root          304 09.01.2001 13.20 boot.old
>> drwxr-xr-x    2 root     root           35 30.11.2000 17.24 cdrom
>> > $ ls -la --full-time /
>> total 139
>> drwxr-xr-x   22 root     root          604 pe 26.01.2001 15.19.12 .
>> drwxr-xr-x   22 root     root          604 pe 26.01.2001 15.19.12 ..
>> drwxr-xr-x    2 root     root         1460 to 22.02.2001 17.16.19 bin
>> drwxr-xr-x    5 root     root         1024 ma 15.01.2001 11.44.23 boot
>> drwxr-xr-x    2 root     root          304 ti 09.01.2001 13.20.25 boot.old
>> drwxr-xr-x    2 root     root           35 to 30.11.2000 17.24.25 cdrom
>> drwxr-xr-x    5 root     root        27940 to 08.03.2001 06.48.12 dev
>> > The first format is one character longer than the current format.  If
>> the extra length is an issue, the first format could be shortened to:
>> > drwxr-xr-x   22 root     root          604 26.01. 15.19 .
>> drwxr-xr-x   22 root     root          604 12.01.  1996 ..
>> drwxr-xr-x    2 root     root         1460 22.02. 17.16 bin
>> drwxr-xr-x    5 root     root         1024 15.01. 11.44 boot
>> drwxr-xr-x    2 root     root          304 09.01. 13.20 boot.old
> drwxr-xr-x    2 root     root          304 09.01. 13.20 boot.old
> drwxr-xr-x    2 root     root           35 30.11. 17.24 cdrom
> 
>> which would be exactly the same length as the U.S. English default
>> format.  To me it would seem to be more clear to always print the
>> year, but the behaviour used by the U.S. ls of printing nearby dates
>> without the year now is OK, too.
>> 
>> I did read the documentation about your requirement of a copyright
>> disclaimer, and no, I haven't sent in a disclaimer for translation
>> work.  I have sent in a disclaimer to the FSF for software work around
>> 10 years ago.
>> 
>> However, in this case, I don't think this very short fi.po even
>> qualifies as an original work by Finnish (or other?) copyright law,
>> as there's no single word of original English or Finnish in it, only
>> three strings of formatting symbols.  So perhaps you can consider
>> accepting it despite the lack of a copyright disclaimer.
>
>I wouldn't mind to accept it, bu Jim has to decide.  It would be the
>best an "official" member of the Finnish team would stand up and submit
>the file to address@hidden -- first, he will have to tell
>me to change the registry file accordingly.

>Tor Lillqvist <address@hidden> writes:
>
>> Finnish GNU/LI List writes:
>> > My proposed fi.po changes the output into:
>> drwxr-xr-x    2 root     root         1460 22.02.2001 17.16 bin
>> drwxr-xr-x    5 root     root         1024 15.01.2001 11.44 boot
>> drwxr-xr-x    2 root     root         1460 to 22.02.2001 17.16.19 bin
>> drwxr-xr-x    5 root     root         1024 ma 15.01.2001 11.44.23 boot

>> Even if the 22.02.2001 format is the one most commonly used in
>> Finland, and I don't have anything against it when used for isolated
>> dates, I do think that it is stupid to use it here. Exactly in
>> contexts like directory listings the ISO standard format 2001-02-22 is
>> the most logical to use. Compare this output from ls -lt:

>> -rw-r--r--   1 tml      513         18194 2001-02-25 18:32 NEWS
>> -rw-r--r--   1 tml      513             0 2001-02-21 16:16 config.cache
>> -rwxr-xr-x   1 tml      513        228525 2001-02-20 22:37 configure~
>> -rwxr-xr-x   1 tml      513        150000 2001-02-20 22:22 libtool~
>> drwxr-xr-x   4 tml      513             0 2001-02-15 19:57 libltdl
>> drwxr-xr-x   3 tml      513             0 2001-02-15 19:57 mail
>> -rw-r--r--   1 tml      513          9110 2001-02-05 02:24 ltdl.m4
>> -rw-r--r--   1 tml      513          5944 2000-12-14 04:53 README
>> -rwxr-xr-x   1 tml      513           647 2000-11-01 01:31 bootstrap

>> to this:

>> -rw-r--r--   1 tml      513         18194 25.02.2001 18:32 NEWS
>> -rw-r--r--   1 tml      513             0 21.02.2001 16:16 config.cache
>> -rwxr-xr-x   1 tml      513        228525 20.02.2001 22:37 configure~
>> -rwxr-xr-x   1 tml      513        150000 20.02.2001 22:22 libtool~
>> drwxr-xr-x   4 tml      513             0 15.02.2001 19:57 libltdl
>> drwxr-xr-x   3 tml      513             0 15.02.2001 19:57 mail
>> -rw-r--r--   1 tml      513          9110 05.02.2001 02:24 ltdl.m4
>> -rw-r--r--   1 tml      513          5944 14.12.2000 04:53 README
>> -rwxr-xr-x   1 tml      513           647 01.11.2000 01:31 bootstrap

>> Isn't it much easier to quickly get an impression of the file age
>> distribution from the first list, where the time units are in strict
>> significance order?

>> Of course, the obvious question is, why doesn't ls have --date-format
>> and --time-format options, then everybody could use their favourite
>> format...

>> --tml




//Jyrki