[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
Re: State of the GNUnion 2020
From: |
Alexandre François Garreau |
Subject: |
Re: State of the GNUnion 2020 |
Date: |
Fri, 21 Feb 2020 12:39:37 +0100 |
Le jeudi 20 février 2020, 14:45:02 CET Samuel Thibault a écrit :
> Dmitry Gutov, le jeu. 20 févr. 2020 15:31:17 +0200, a ecrit:
> > On the flip side, an argument is made that your initiative might make
> > GNU more exclusionary because of the extra conditions on what it
> > takes to be a part of it.
>
> At some point you have to exclude some people in order to include other
> people, yes. We can see that in various communities: when somebody is
> having a toxic behavior and does not changes behavior even after strong
> warnings, one has to exclude that person, because otherwise that person
> will make a lot other people fly away. Not taking the steps to exclude
> the toxic person does mean excluding people that can not stand the toxic
> behavior, even if that latter exclusion is not explicit.
>
> That seems to be the ground of what some people do not understand here:
> full inclusiveness can not work, there will always be some people you
> will be excluding one way or the other, voluntarily or not. Making sure
> that the choice of who you exclude gets written down seems important to
> me.
This is interesting but too familiar to me. I’ve already seen this
discourse, and the last paragraph about “gets written down” seems to be
really right and really convincing to me, as I already seen it as well,
and each time it is time to support a similar thing the only point I judge
valid.
But there are three issues with this reasoning: it is defeatist, it is
paternalist, and it is apolitical (in the “right-wing” meaning)
It is defeatist because it departs from the basic idea you’ll *have* to
exclude someone at some point. No solution will ever be found. And
rather than taking the risk of not reacting immediately (“tolerance zero”,
another right wing thing), you prefer to “aknowledge” this “will have to
be done at some point”. Is if there wasn’t any middle ground for
compromision there.
The idea of shared kill/blacklist or /ignore have been already proposed.
That solves it. Just as two places whose one is moderated and the other
not (actually you have private GNU list for better moderation, this is the
“free” one, you chose that).
The fact trolling could happen even once moderation is there also was told
about. It could still go on privately, or as spam. But for some reasons
this isn’t taked as a “failure” of it.
Like prisons and repression happens and grows to solve issues that still
exist anyway, as if the only issue wasn’t to fix the problem, to find and/or
develop The Right Thing, but to be able to claim you’re not responsible of
it because you’ve done everything possible (even the wrong).
It is paternalist because it assumes *the chiefs* have to take care for
“uncomfort” and “stuff people couldn’t stand”. “Standing” something is
always physically possible. The issue is psychological. But thankfully
psychological diversity exists (something that is all too often forgotten
(and advertised as if it should be!)), as well as psychological evolution.
To me, and by experience, from any possible social group, there will be
people who can stand anything. Even more so: people from marginalized
groups can sometimes have some people who can stand *more* (not of
everything necessarily, but of some kinds), on average, because they’re
used to. This is, unfortunately, an useful ability in nowadays world. An
ability that are also lacking some snowflakes who are because of the luxury
of a comfortable lifestyle all along (which is a privilege), more than any
dispriviledge (but is that worth defending? is it *possible* defending, as
some people will be oversensitive to anything?)
It always will be, because “excluding” these “toxic” people won’t make
them disappear away, they always will be somewhere. So either you exclude
progressively more until you’ve made ghettos, prisons, or killed them,
either you only divide the world into the places for you, and the places
for them (so now you restrict yourself to only a part of the world:
limited).
Now, in the previous case, with no exclusions, these people who learnt to
stand anything could, as soon as there is no official exclusion, participate
in anything, that is good. While otherwise now there are always places
where you couldn’t if people disagree with you… and that leds to the next
part:
It is apolitical because it denies the inherent issue of political
disagreement. I’ve already seen the “broken window” argument out there.
This is the same kind of right-wing points that come from those who denie
that. Like there are no diverse social groups with diverging interests,
to be arbitrated, but a big block “society” that needs order, and the
dissidents, the “gangsters” that allegedly would like to create chaos,
against society (as if they could be outside of it). There are the “good”
the “common” people, and the “bad” ones.
This is the very mindset behind the idea that, to keep society clean and
in order, we *need* prisons so that to keep (essentialised) “criminals”
out of it (“otherwise it would be chaos”, and society would suffer from it,
people would leave, other wouldn’t come, stuff or people wouldn’t even
possibly come to existence anymore).
Except then some people include LGBT people into it. I mean I’ve already
seen people to say if we don’t reject these out of society, society come
to chaos and doesn’t work anymore (and actually it is true many rules
becomes meaningless once you consider bisexuals or intersexuated people).
There are also people unwilling to participate stuff where there are some
(usually marginalized) minorities (I’ve even heard recently about state-
sponsored “LGBT-free” public places in Poland… and about the fact it
afterwards became a meme for LGBT people to take selfies before the “LGBT-
free” panels).
How do you make the difference? how do you decide what is chaos and what is
order? who does that? when?
I’ve also seen that about some handicaped people, whose presence would
make a lot of people uncomfortable.
You could find the issue simple until you start analyzing ideologically
some sets on handicaped people and find strong overrepresentation of
extreme-left-wing and extreme-right-wing ideas, that eventually comes to
the fact these people ends, on average, being more excluded than “normal”
people, for something that should sound illegitimate for all: ideas.
- Re: State of the GNUnion 2020, (continued)
- Re: State of the GNUnion 2020, Dmitry Gutov, 2020/02/21
- Re: State of the GNUnion 2020, Ruben Safir, 2020/02/23
- Re: State of the GNUnion 2020, Samuel Thibault, 2020/02/20
- Re: State of the GNUnion 2020, Dmitry Gutov, 2020/02/20
- Re: State of the GNUnion 2020, Samuel Thibault, 2020/02/20
- Re: State of the GNUnion 2020, Dmitry Gutov, 2020/02/20
- Re: State of the GNUnion 2020, Samuel Thibault, 2020/02/20
- Re: State of the GNUnion 2020, Alfred M. Szmidt, 2020/02/20
- Re: State of the GNUnion 2020, Samuel Thibault, 2020/02/20
- Re: State of the GNUnion 2020, Andreas R., 2020/02/20
- Re: State of the GNUnion 2020,
Alexandre François Garreau <=
- Re: State of the GNUnion 2020, Samuel Thibault, 2020/02/21
- Re: State of the GNUnion 2020, Alexandre François Garreau, 2020/02/22
- Re: State of the GNUnion 2020, Samuel Thibault, 2020/02/22
- Re: State of the GNUnion 2020, Alexandre François Garreau, 2020/02/22
- Re: State of the GNUnion 2020, Samuel Thibault, 2020/02/22
- Re: State of the GNUnion 2020, Alexandre François Garreau, 2020/02/22
- Re: State of the GNUnion 2020, Dmitry Gutov, 2020/02/24
- Re: State of the GNUnion 2020, Samuel Thibault, 2020/02/24
- Re: State of the GNUnion 2020, Alexandre François Garreau, 2020/02/24
- Re: State of the GNUnion 2020, Samuel Thibault, 2020/02/25