Re: [h-e-w] EmacsW32, gnuserv, pathes in .emacs

[Eli Zaretskii]

[I don't see why your message and my response should be off-list, so I
added it back.]

> Eli Zaretskii wrote on Thursday, July 06, 2006 9:35 PM::
> 
> >> Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 12:56:51 +0100
> >> From: "Phil Betts" <address@hidden>
> >> 
>                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Please do not quote raw email addresses.  Let's not feed the spammers.

Sorry, I don't understand what I did wrong, in your opinion.  What you
cite is the usual way RMAIL formats the reply.  If you think that is
wrong, please suggest a change to RMAIL.  I cannot afford editing the
cited portions, what with the amount of mail I'm replying every single
day.

> >> The OP said that he'd not yet found "good .emacs-files or tutorials".
> >> That implied that he'd already looked.
> > 
> > I don't see how this implies that he looked in the user manual.
> 
> Easy tiger!  You're criticising me for reading too much into what 
> Christian said whilst doing exactly that yourself.  I said _he_ implied
> he'd looked, and that _I_ assumed that included the bundled manual.

You lost me.  If this is important, please explain how I'm wrong
saying that looking for "good .emacs-files or tutorials" doesn't mean
he looked in the manual.

> >> Perhaps I was wrong, but since the *first* place I'd look is in the
> >> program's bundled documentation, I assumed he had too.
> > 
> > I find that assumption is wrong in most cases.
> 
> Maybe, but without evidence to the contrary, I think it's polite to
> assume a modicum of intelligence.

There's nothing impolite in pointing people to relevant portions of
the manual.  If expressed in polite language, it's entirely
appropriate, IMHO.

> Of course, if a poster actually
> requests information that is in the manual, that would count as such 
> evidence.

This part from the OP's message:

>>> now my beginner-question:
>>> 
>>> 1) is there any possibility to write the pathes in the .emacs-file, so that 
>>> i don't have to copy the files
>>> 2) generally i didn't find until yet good .emacs-files or tutorials or at 
>>> least a list with all possible parameters for an emacs-file. maybe anybody 
>>> could give some hints to me. the 

clearly indicates to me that the "Init File" node of the Emacs manual
is the right place for him to start.  If you disagree, we probably
have very different views on how to introduce newbies to Emacs.

> >> In any case, AFAIR the bundled tutorial only covers the fundamentals
> > 
> > I didn't mean the tutorial.  I meant the user manual and the built-in
> > documentation and help commands. 
> 
> OK, it's the end of the week, so I'll forgive you for not paying 
> attention.  Christian specifically asked for tutorials and .emacs files,
> that's why I mentioned the tutorial.

"tutorials" is not necessarily the same as "the tutorial".  The former
is generally used to refer to tutorials available on the net, while
the latter (to me) means the Emacs tutorial.

> >> and the documentation doesn't include "good .emacs-files"
> > 
> > Why not?  There's a section on the init files and what things go into
> > it. 
> 
> True, but that's not what he asked for.

I wasn't sure he knew what to ask, given the fact that he described
his questions as beginners' ones.

> >> E.g. terminology is often confusing - emacs uses "auto-fill" where
> >> the rest of the world uses "auto-wrap".
> > 
> > The manual has a Glossary section precisely for that need.  I think
> > we should make a point of telling newbies about its existence, to
> > avoid terminology problems.  
> 
> I would agree with that.  As I said earlier, the manual is remarkably
> complete, but using it most effectively is not that intuitive for 
> newbies.

Which is why I suggested to help newbies to learn how to use it
efficiently.  They should know about the Glossary, and they should
know and use the `i' command, among other things.

> >> If you
> >> apropos for "wrap", you'll find nothing remotely related to word-
> >> wrapping.  As in a lot of technical documentation, if you know where
> >> to find the answer, you probably already know the answer.
> > 
> > My crystal ball says that you either don't know about the `i'
> > (Info-index) command, or rarely use it.  That command (and the
> > indexing in the manual) is specifically tuned to those who need to
> > find things quickly _without_ knowing what they are looking for.  I
> > think we should advertise that feature much more than we do, because
> > it's under-used.    
> 
> Your crystal ball is off target.  I was putting myself in the position
> of new users, who probably don't know about the i (or s) commands.

Why would a user know about `apropos', but not about `Info-index'?
They are both described in the same node "Help" in the Emacs manual.

> IMHO, it's unreasonable to expect new users to have to read the "Expert 
> Info" section of the Info manual to find out how to search the Emacs
> manual.

I don't expect them.  That's why `i' is described in the Emacs manual,
in the very first node that talks about the help facilities.

> Even the Info menu (which new users may not even have noticed)
> is more confusing than it should be.

How about submitting to emacs-devel a practical proposal to make it
better, then?

> >> Is this EmacsW32 specific documentation, or part of the main emacs
> >> manual?
> > 
> > The latter, of course.  I hate forked efforts; my only gripe about
> > Lennart's EmacsW32 effort is that it's ``off-Emacs'', not part of the
> > official package.  
> 
> It needn't have been forked.  I thought there may be an emacsw32.info,
> which would have been an acceptable way to add to the manual without 
> involving any patches.

Spreading information about the same package between separate Info
manuals degrades users' quality of life, because it makes searching
for the information harder.  (There's the `info-apropos' command to
help there, but it's even less known that `Info-index'.)