Re: [Axiom-developer] Re: A modest proposal

[Bill Page]

> ...
> C Y writes:
> > If I understand correctly from previous posts, in this context "ghetto"
> > is being used to describe a large body of tools that are divorced from
> > mainstream directions being taken by the open source community.
> > Centering on Lisp already triggers some of those complaints, and Bill's
> > concern (if I understand correctly) is that if we home-grow too much we
> > will end up not being able to grow with the open source world and be
> > left behind with a bunch of non-standard tools no one wants to take the
> > time to understand.

Thanks for carrying my side of the conversation for me, Cliff. :-)
I've had my mind on other things for the last few hours... Yes, you
state very clearly and exactly my concerns.

On 29 Jun 2007 20:13:40 -0400, Stephen Wilson wrote:

> Ok.  I recall similar notions.  New tools that solve new problems are
> always non-standard by definition.  I just never connected `ghetto'
> with that perspective.

What "new problems" are you referring to here? I do not see any new
problems in this part of the Axiom project. The methodologies that we
are talking about here have been around nearly as long as Axiom
itself.

> > Obviously I disagree that this is what will happen - Lisp I don't
> > regard as a ghetto and ASDF is the standard solution within the Lisp
> > world.  It seems to be well designed and flexible.

I have a very great respect for Lisp, but I wonder how you can look
around the web and at the type and number of programs that have been
written in the last 10 years and not think that Lisp is essentially
already a ghetto (as you have so clearly and accurately defined it).
We might wish that that was not true but all the evidence is clearly
there. Ask the people who teach computer science at university what
they think of Lisp. Ask them what there students think of Lisp. Gaby
for example has already said what the reaction of his colleagues was
to the fact that he has been spending so much time on an "old Lisp"
system like Axiom... When I mentioned Lisp to a room full of
enthusiastic Sage developers you should have seen the "tolerant
amusement" on the faces those under 25 in the crowd. Man, did that
make me feel old... :-(

What does ASDF do that 'make' and other parts of the existing build
system does not already do?

> >  And the goal is to develop tools such that given a working Lisp
> > environment users and developers will be able to focus on the Algebra
> > without worrying about the underlying tools.  If they MUST work with
> > them, I would like them to be literate all the way down - no dark corners
> > to get into trouble with.  But that's again just me.

That part I completely agree with but I fail to see why that requires
doing the things that you and Stephen are proposing.

> Your certainly not alone :)

That's what I like about the web! ;-)

Regards,
Bill Page.