Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Question about UHD driver

[Mark McCarron]

So, you think the penalty of processing in the stack, outweighs the performance gained by having duplicate streams?

You do realise they are being processed in parallel in the stack???

By the time you would start the copy, my modified DMA would be ready under all scenarios.

Regards,

Mark McCarron

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Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 22:35:25 +0200
Subject: Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Question about UHD driver
From: address@hidden
To: address@hidden
CC: address@hidden

Hi Mark,

I wasn't assuming you didn't know what a driver is - I was just hoping you'd try to realize more clearly,
that especially for something like network packets, you need a hardware driver (and the network stack of the os)
to make use of your dma'ed data.

You're totally right that data from a device needs to be transferred somewhere before it can be used.
However, I don't think you're right in respect to a parallel DMA always making your system faster - your second version
of the data still has to be processed by driver/stack (and therefore by the cpu), so that having it copied into RAM while
your machine is processing the first version is not necessarily faster than copying the processed version.
In fact, under my caching asumptions, that would even be slower on a single core system.

On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 8:36 PM, Mark McCarron <address@hidden> wrote:

Marcus,

I was writing the Windows driver for Per Vices Corporation (Phi/Noctar) last year, I know how drivers work.  I should have mentioned that earlier.

What you are missing is the fact that the DMA must occur first before anything can get to a cache.  So, if we are writing to memory in parallel, it is always going to be faster as this happens long before data gets to the CPU.

Also, just to correct some things, the whole point of DMA is to take the CPU out of the loop, so the CPU is not used to conduct transfers.  It can take part in scheduling, but the data goes from the device into memory and a pointer is returned.  The FIFO buffer in an app makes use of this pointer.

Regards,

Mark McCarron

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Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 20:23:34 +0200

Subject: Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] Question about UHD driver

From: address@hidden
To: address@hidden
CC: address@hidden

> The ideal scenario is to never copy data and it is achievable, to a degree, through proper planning.

I have to strongly disagree with that.
You have to realize what a /driver/ is. And why it is needed:
A driver takes whatever ressources a piece of hardware offers and makes these ressources usable to actual
application software. Thus: A driver is /necessary/ to convert and transfer data from "the wire" to something
a program can access without having to know how this particular piece of hardware works.
This conversion _has_ to happen using the CPU power of the host. Therefore, you either have to let the driver
do its work on all copies of the device data in RAM, or you just do it once, and then copy the data using the CPU.
Which is way more intelligent, flexible, well-performing... and what is done in current architectures.

>   If you look at your argument, you are essentially saying that it is better to copy than to have a pointer.
In many cases it is.
Example?
You have an arbitrary computer architecture with external memory (this is desirable unless you want to be
limited to microcontrollers):
RAM---memory bus---cpu

Gigabytes of RAM aren't easy to produce cheaply, and are even harder to access with low latency.
Therefore, modern CPUs have caches:

RAM --- memory bus --- Cache --- CPU

Those caches are designed to be fast, but are of limited size (for reasons aforementioned).
Now take your DMA transfer: You instruct the memory controller to write data from your device to RAM.

That automatically invalidates the cache for this RAM region,if that happens to be cached, which is
likely, because we're in a scenario where we constantly use data from the device.

Now assume that this data is relevant to the system. (otherwise we wouldn't argue over performance, would we?)
So, in the next few microseconds, someone is going to access that newly written data.
Whether the cache/dma/memory controller updated the cache or not, there will be one valid copy in the cache soon.
Now, copying that data from RAM address to RAM address is usually a lot faster than a DMA - because
1) the cache can "hide" the copying by reading from the original address as long as no writes on either
original or copy take place,
2) access to dma'ed memory only present in RAM is as fast as access to the cache _at best_.

Therefore, zero copy is not always preferable above having a RAM copy - especially for stuff that fits into L2 cache
multiple times; for ethernet packets in special.

Hope that mail explained my point of view well enough :)
Greetings,
Marcus

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