RE: delete-selection-mode as default

[Drew Adams]

> > Users can trivially control which of the 5 behaviors to use for
> > a given command, just by putting a property on the command
> > symbol.
> 
> Putting properties on symbols to change the behavior of a command is
> not user-level customization.  IOW, we are miscommunicating.

There are users, and there are users. I didn't say that users
will do that in general. Far from it.

I don't know anyone who has ever bothered to set the d-s-m
behavior for a particular command, unless it's a new command
that they themselves created.

That's the typical use case: causing your own command that's
similar to standard `yank' or `backward-delete-char-untabify'
or... to behave like the standard command wrt d-s-m.

If you create a yank command then you want d-s-m to treat it
as such (not to yank back the text that it just deleted). Typically
this is done for a library, but it could be done in a user init file.

The point is that you can, if you need/want to, _trivially_
define the specific behavior for a given command. Nothing
complicated for any user to do that, even if very few will ever
need to.

> > There's no difficulty "reconciling" d-s-m with the "other
> > uses" of the region that you cite. None whatsoever.
> > You've shown none, AFAICT. No trick is needed. It just
> > works.
> 
> This whole thread makes it acutely clear that there is a problem.

I disagree that there is a problem with d-s-m, or with
turning it on by default. You tout irreconcilability but give
no example.

It's true that problems have been cited in the thread:

   Misunderstandings come from mistaken expectations and
   the fact that different users use Emacs differently.

   Confusion can come from the fact that there are multiple
   knobs to control region behavior (and not just two modes,
   t-m-m and d-s-m), and it's not obvious sometimes that a
   given knob exists or how the various knobs interact.

That users can be confused about the region etc. does not
stem from d-s-m - please don't scapegoat it.

Confusion comes primarily from the introduction of
t-m-m and, especially, the coupling, in C-x C-x, of region
activation with swapping point and mark. There was no
confusion before that. And no confusion was introduced
by adding d-s-m.

The fact that users who might want to really understand
all of the various possibilities need to scour the manual
to find info that is spread all over the place is too bad.
I mentioned some possibilities for helping with that.

But normally a given user just knows what s?he uses,
and doesn't try to know about and understand every
possibility regarding point, mark, region, selection,
activation, highlighting, action, deletion, etc.

This discussion, since it now deals with all possibilities
(because people who take different approaches have
widened the scope), has made apparent the complications.

But a given user normally doesn't sense how complicated
this stuff can be. Mr X knows his way of using the region;
Ms Y knows her way, and so on.

> And your message actually agrees with me towards the end.

Again, I disagree. Do you mean the text cited just above?
If not, where do you think I've agreed with you that there's
inherent difficulty "reconciling" d-s-m with the "other uses"
of the region that you cite?

You make it sound like things are crystal clear and simple
with the status quo, and that defaulting to d-s-m would
muddy the waters.

In fact, the waters are muddy now, if one bothers to look
into them. And those umpteen knobs I mentioned do not
come from d-s-m.

You've correctly pointed out that the discussion, e.g.,
between Alan and Hw, ranging to `mark-even-if-inactive'
and beyond, has pointed out complications. What's not
correct is to suggest that the complications come from d-s-m.

It's wrong to suggest that all is harmonious between
your first two region "uses": navigation and invoking
commands on a region, and that your third "use",
delete-selection-mode, is the irreconcilable culprit that
threatens to spit in the soup and turn harmony into discord.

Defaulting to d-s-m would just make life simpler for
most users (IMHO). And those who don't want d-s-m
on can turn it off.

And whether it is on or off, or whether d-s-m even
exists or not, the complications we've pointed out
are present - they don't come from d-s-m mode.

You've decided that d-s-m won't be on by default
anytime soon. OK. But it's wrong to paint a picture
of d-s-m as a bogey man that threatens to sow
contradiction.