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Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US
From: |
Pierce T . Wetter III |
Subject: |
Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US |
Date: |
Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:11:55 -0700 |
If we wanted Iraqi oil, it would have been enormously cheaper and
quicker to abet the corrupt UN oil-for-food program or just drop the
sanctions entirely.
It was quite well known that the iraqi people suffered from it and I
can't
really remember that the US had any interest in doing something about
this.
We did, there were several discussions about it, and led in part to
our frustration with the UN. Whether or not Osama had links to Saddam,
he was definitely using the sanctions as a recruiting drive. One of
the
driving forces behind the oil-for-food program was Madeline Albright,
in
part to help relieve the humanitarian problems brought on by the
sanctions.
So why had the US no interest in lifting these sanctions?
We had interest in lifting the sanctions, and if Saddam had made a
reasonable effort to stop trying to abuse them while they were in place,
it might have happened. Ignoring the corruption entirely, everyone
agrees
that Saddam was _trying_ to get WMD materials, they just disagree on
whether he was successful.
So we didn't like the sanctions either, but we also didn't like the
idea
of letting Saddam off the leash. We weren't alone in that, his neighbors
were telling us the same thing.
That the
oil-for-food program was abused is one point, but the suffering of the
iraqui people is another. Your only reflex to the sanctions is that
there
was a abuse of the only thing that actually helped the people.
One of the first things Bush did in office was institute what he called
"smart sanctions". What we really wanted to do was reform the
oil-for-food
program, and we tried, but we got blocked.
What good
did the sanctions? That maybe Saddams power was stabilized? What were
the
plans after sanctions (they had to be lifted at some point)?
We didn't have any plans really, didn't know what to do.
Had the US
any interest that Iraq strengthened its economic ties to Europe?
No, except where it led to corruption.
Why was
the US so interested to invade Iraq again?
I don't know if I can articulate it very well, but it was basically a
sense
that we needed to protect our flank in the war on terror. Does that
make sense
or do I need to go into more detail?
Liberating the people in iraq
was certainly not a primary reason,
Nope, that was considered a fringe benefit, but it might have tipped
the
scales in Bush's thinking. Hard to say.
that doesn't explain the sudden rush
after doing nothing for 11 years.
Ran out of patience? It wasn't quite "sudden" I know it seems that
way, but there was probably a year of groundwork or more laid before we
went in. Everyone knew we were
probably going to go in when we started working on the new resolution.
Why did the US go in without the support
of the UN to share the burden, such a war costs a lot of money, which
has
to come from somewhere.
Impatience, and by the time things had come to a head in the UN, all
the other
diplomacy and operations were already in place. We'd already committed
to our
arab allies that we were going to go in. It takes a year minimum to get
a modern
army ready for this sort of invasion.
Perhaps if Hans Blix had seemed more aggressive and less cautious Bush
would have
been willing to trust him more. I don't know.
Sorry Pierce, as long as you stay at the level of some rather boring
political games between the US and Europe, this will get nowhere.
Throwing
Osama into this makes it only more ridiculous.
I threw Osama in there because on 9/12/2001 when I was looking at Al
Queda's
website, all I saw was Iraq this and Iraq that. Lets drop it though
because
it does muddy the water.
Fair enough that its shallow, but so are _your_ arguments. Its the
nature of the medium, that email discussions are a bit shallow. I
never
said the prison torture cases are just a few individuals, I just
pointed out that they came to light not because some crusading
reporter
uncovered them, but because the Army was prosecuting them.
Wrong, the Army wasn't prosecuting anything, it was investigating after
complaints of soldiers. Only the pictures brought the whole thing into
movement and forced the Army to actually do something about this.
I think we could both be right here. A criminal investigation is the
first step
in prosecution. Before the story broke:
1. The Brigadier General in charge of the prison and two other
prisons had been
relieved for cause. Its a big deal when you relieve a BG.
2. 17 soldiers had been suspended, including a battalion commander,
and company
commander.
3. Charges are preferred against 6 more soldiers.
4. 6 letters of reprimand, 2 soldiers dishonorably discharged.
5. Proceedings begin against Ivan Frederick, which broke the story
after one of
the other accused gave a CD of the photos to an MP.
So people were being actively prosecuted according to the timeline I'm
seeing.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/World/iraqi_prisoner_abuse_timeline
-1.html
Pierce
- Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, (continued)
- Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, Michael Poole, 2004/07/19
- Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, Roman Zippel, 2004/07/19
- Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, mdpoole, 2004/07/19
- Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, Roman Zippel, 2004/07/19
- Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, Michael Poole, 2004/07/19
- Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, Roman Zippel, 2004/07/19
- Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, Pierce T . Wetter III, 2004/07/19
- Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, Roman Zippel, 2004/07/20
- Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, Momchil Velikov, 2004/07/20
- Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, Pierce T . Wetter III, 2004/07/20
- Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US,
Pierce T . Wetter III <=
- Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, Roman Zippel, 2004/07/20
- Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, Pierce T . Wetter III, 2004/07/20
- Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, nadim, 2004/07/20
- Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, Pierce T . Wetter III, 2004/07/20
- Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, nadim, 2004/07/20
- Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, Frank T. Pohlmann, 2004/07/20
- Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, Stephen J. Turnbull, 2004/07/22
- Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, Frank T. Pohlmann, 2004/07/22
- Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, Stephen J. Turnbull, 2004/07/22
- Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, Pierce T . Wetter III, 2004/07/22