Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?

[MSavoritias]

On 9/18/23 12:37, Simon Tournier wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Sun, 17 Sep 2023 at 19:20, MSavoritias <email@msavoritias.me> wrote:
>
> > Including an committer. And the fact that guix doesn't get have many
> > committers and contributors are scarce, speaks for itself. If you don't
> > see it I suggest asking people in social networks/forums why they
> > *don't* get involved in guix.
> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
> $ git shortlog -sn --all | wc -l
> 952
>
> $ git log --format="%ce" | sort | uniq -c | wc -l
> 104
> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>
> Please point one project where:
>
>    + more than 900 people have contributed to the project,
>    + more than 100 people had or have write access in the repository.
>
> It is fine to discuss how to improve and what we could do better.  It is
> incorrect to say “guix doesn't get have many committers and
> contributors” and it is not fine to frame it negatively.
I was talking from my experience. If you don't share it that is fine.
> > For example Debian moved to Gitlab. Same for gnome and kde.
> As I pointed in my very first reply [1] in this thread:
>
>          For instance, Debian is based on Gitlab since their switch from Alioth
>          to Salsa.  It would be interesting to know if this “new” web-based
>          workflow using Merge Request is increasing the number of submissions
>          and/or increasing the number of occasional contributors.
>
> As far as I have read all this thread, no one provides numbers.  The
> answer by Vagrant (Debian Developer and Guix contributor) appears to me
> interesting [2].  Therefore, could we stop this useless and unproductive
> flamewar?  Many Guix channels are hosted on Gitlab, Github or Sourcehut
> and they are not receiving so much more contributions.  As Katherine
> pointed [3],

Regarding the many contributions it has to do also with a lot of other 
stuff. Obviously a web interface wouldn't

solve everything. And i hope it never seemed I said otherwise.

>          I know everyone is focusing on email vs. web-forge, but I am trying to
>          draw attention to the root causes of the complexity, and enumerating
>          possible solutions to these.
>
> and I think that kind of mindset is very helpful; it is engaging.  Well,
> to my approximate recollection, there is a talk at each DebConf about
> reflecting on newcomers backed by some stats; e.g., [4].  In summary,
> “email vs. web-forge” is a fake-problem, IMHO.  Last, the talk [5] by
> Enrico Zini appears to me much more fruitful.  The question is about
> sustain the community.  And this sustainability does not clearly depend
> on any tool.
The thing is nobody talked about email vs web forge to my knowledge though.

What was pointed out was specifically cognitive overhead and how we can 
reduce that.

One of the solution offered was to have *also* a web interface. It was 
never suggested any comparison.

The comparison seemed to have stemmed from some people feeling they 
would be left behind (?) and wanting to

prove that email is better or something. Personally i don't care what is 
better.

What i care is that some people prefer web-based so we should 
accommodate them :) plain and simple.


MSavoritias

> Cheers,
> simon
>
>
> 1: Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?
> Simon Tournier <zimon.toutoune@gmail.com>
> Thu, 24 Aug 2023 20:53:14 +0200
> id:871qfsuvad.fsf@gmail.com
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2023-08
> https://yhetil.org/guix/871qfsuvad.fsf@gmail.com
>
> 2: Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?
> Vagrant Cascadian <vagrant@debian.org>
> Sat, 02 Sep 2023 18:05:40 -0700
> id:87wmx8m5gb.fsf@wireframe
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2023-09
> https://yhetil.org/guix/87wmx8m5gb.fsf@wireframe
>
> 3: Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?
> Katherine Cox-Buday <cox.katherine.e@gmail.com>
> Tue, 05 Sep 2023 13:15:48 -0600
> id:13416fee-8c7d-b145-48b9-0fbec22517b1@gmail.com
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2023-09
> 13416fee-8c7d-b145-48b9-0fbec22517b1@gmail.com">https://yhetil.org/guix/13416fee-8c7d-b145-48b9-0fbec22517b1@gmail.com
>
> 4: https://debconf23.debconf.org/talks/32-teams-newcomers-and-numbers/
> 5: https://debconf23.debconf.org/talks/2-adulting/