Re: Matrix communication protocol.

[Msavoritias]

   I know that Whats app at some point used the XMPP protocol. and
   Facebook. I don't know if it is used internally still though.
   Especially since they are merging all the messaging protocols together
   and basically rewriting everything.
   Google used to use it but I don't know anymore since they changed three
   apps since then.
   I was talking about the protocol being Copyleft. Otherwise you risk of
   EEE like Whatapp did.
   The conversation here is not about Riot or Element. Its about Matrix
   the protocol. Which has many clients. Some of them AGPL-3 even.
   I fail to understand though what does it matter that XMPP is may or may
   not used by Facebook. The point I was trying to make was that Matrix is
   used and it has wide deployment. It's not something that's going to go
   away.
   The second point I was trying to raise is that XMPP doesn't have good
   clients for Mobile, doesn't have modern features or even a coherent
   standard.
   So by that point I was advocating to have a Matrix server so we can
   attract new contributors that may want modern features.
   PS. How would Vector Violate its own license?
   MSavoritias

   On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 11:12, Adrien Bourmault (neox on Freenode)
   <neox@os-k.eu> wrote:

   For instance, Conversations is in the FSD, as confirmed free software.
   [1]https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Conversations.im I don't understand
   your statements. XMPP is used by major companies like Whatsapp for
   example, if you need a proprietary one (so Facebook use it).
   Conversations is GPL v3, so this is copyleft isn't it ? The Matrix
   protocol is not especially copyleft nor XMPP. These are just spec
   documents that describes functions. If Matrix is under copyleft, Vector
   is actually violating its own license ! Conversations advocates for
   free software, unlike Element for example. This is a huge difference.
   Librement, Le 31 juillet 2020 10:58:30 GMT+02:00, Msavoritias
   <[2]marinus.savoritias@disroot.org> a crit :

     As I said they mainly had issues with the UI/UX and some features
     that were missing like stickers. I searched for the second one and
     there didn't seem to be an intention to implement stickers. Things
     don't seems to be changing on that front though. The last client on
     that page Zom moved to matrix too. If you ask me they are different
     crowds. XMPP is for techies with no chance of going mainstream.
     Matrix takes a more radical approach and even now it is used more
     than XMPP. With XMPP being mostly gone since Google and Facebook
     Stopped using it. Gone outside of the tech communities that is. Only
     place I see recommending it is for the enccryption. If you ask me I
     would prefer a copyleft protocol. Because neither XMPP or Matrix can
     stop themselves from being EEE. But I will take what i can get. In
     mobile at least there doesn't seem to be enough development outside
     of Conversations. I know it is pretty popular with privacy folks
     though. So maybe it finds some use there. I like the standarization
     you said the community is trying. But I think its too late for that.
     With all the fragmentation and people moving on. You are right that
     people still use it but I think it is more like IRC. It is good for
     the minority but you are not going to convince new users to join
     there. We should look how to convince new users to join in modern
     protocols. If Conversations are the benchmark for how much behind
     XMPP is in capabilities that a modern user wants, then I don't know
     if it can be overcomed. MSavoritias On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 03:00,
     Denver Gingerich <[3]denver@ossguy.com> wrote:

     On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 09:51:43PM +0200, Msavoritias wrote:

     Conversations is badly designed. I am talking from experience trying
     for people to adopt it.

     I haven't had any bad experiences getting people to adopt
     Conversations. Maybe you could be more specific about what
     particular aspects of Conversations they have issues with?

     Every other client listed on this page:
     <<[4]https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html>> for android is
     basically with design from twenty years ago. There doesn't seem to
     be new clients popping up. for mobile at least. In contrast Matrix
     <<[5]https://matrix.org/clients/>> has a lot of new clients with
     active development.

     I agree that the XMPP community could make a prettier clients page
     with screenshots and such, like Matrix has. There are at least as
     many XMPP clients under active development as there are Matrix
     clients.

     Its not the problem of something Conversations are missing. Although
     it misses a lot of stuff. Like stickers and widgets. The thing is
     that every client I installed had different capabilities entirely.
     It made sense when I read the phylosophy behind XMPP and Matrix
     though. Matrix wants to be ,from my perspective, a coherent
     standard. One piece. XMPP is more modular. Which explains the
     fragmentation in the XMPP ecosystem.

     True that is another thing the XMPP community could work on. We do
     have compliance suites that will tell you if your client meets a
     certain "coherent standard":
     <[6]https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0423.html#im> However, we
     haven't done enough work to advertise this or certify clients, so
     it's not yet easy to benefit from this work as a person new to XMPP.
     There seem to be enough people using XMPP for it to continue on an
     upward trajectory. It might not see the hockey stick growth that
     other protocols do, but it also hasn't flamed out, which I fear may
     happen with some of the newer, more hyped protocols. Denver
     <[7]https://jmp.chat/>

   For instance, Conversations is in the FSD, as confirmed free software.
   [1][8]https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Conversations.im I don't
   understand your statements. XMPP is used by major companies like
   Whatsapp for example, if you need a proprietary one (so Facebook use
   it). Conversations is GPL v3, so this is copyleft isn't it ? The Matrix
   protocol is not especially copyleft nor XMPP. These are just spec
   documents that describes functions. If Matrix is under copyleft, Vector
   is actually violating its own license ! Conversations advocates for
   free software, unlike Element for example. This is a huge difference.
   Librement, Le 31 juillet 2020 10:58:30 GMT+02:00, Msavoritias
   <[9]marinus.savoritias@disroot.org> a crit : As I said they mainly had
   issues with the UI/UX and some features that were missing like
   stickers. I searched for the second one and there didn't seem to be an
   intention to implement stickers. Things don't seems to be changing on
   that front though. The last client on that page Zom moved to matrix
   too. If you ask me they are different crowds. XMPP is for techies with
   no chance of going mainstream. Matrix takes a more radical approach and
   even now it is used more than XMPP. With XMPP being mostly gone since
   Google and Facebook Stopped using it. Gone outside of the tech
   communities that is. Only place I see recommending it is for the
   enccryption. If you ask me I would prefer a copyleft protocol. Because
   neither XMPP or Matrix can stop themselves from being EEE. But I will
   take what i can get. In mobile at least there doesn't seem to be enough
   development outside of Conversations. I know it is pretty popular with
   privacy folks though. So maybe it finds some use there. I like the
   standarization you said the community is trying. But I think its too
   late for that. With all the fragmentation and people moving on. You are
   right that people still use it but I think it is more like IRC. It is
   good for the minority but you are not going to convince new users to
   join there. We should look how to convince new users to join in modern
   protocols. If Conversations are the benchmark for how much behind XMPP
   is in capabilities that a modern user wants, then I don't know if it
   can be overcomed. MSavoritias On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 03:00, Denver
   Gingerich <[10]denver@ossguy.com> wrote: On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at
   09:51:43PM +0200, Msavoritias wrote: Conversations is badly designed. I
   am talking from experience trying for people to adopt it. I haven't had
   any bad experiences getting people to adopt Conversations. Maybe you
   could be more specific about what particular aspects of Conversations
   they have issues with? Every other client listed on this page:
   <<[2][11]https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html>> for android is
   basically with design from twenty years ago. There doesn't seem to be
   new clients popping up. for mobile at least. In contrast Matrix
   <<[3][12]https://matrix.org/clients/>> has a lot of new clients with
   active development. I agree that the XMPP community could make a
   prettier clients page with screenshots and such, like Matrix has. There
   are at least as many XMPP clients under active development as there are
   Matrix clients. Its not the problem of something Conversations are
   missing. Although it misses a lot of stuff. Like stickers and widgets.
   The thing is that every client I installed had different capabilities
   entirely. It made sense when I read the phylosophy behind XMPP and
   Matrix though. Matrix wants to be ,from my perspective, a coherent
   standard. One piece. XMPP is more modular. Which explains the
   fragmentation in the XMPP ecosystem. True that is another thing the
   XMPP community could work on. We do have compliance suites that will
   tell you if your client meets a certain "coherent standard":
   <[4][13]https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0423.html#im> However, we
   haven't done enough work to advertise this or certify clients, so it's
   not yet easy to benefit from this work as a person new to XMPP. There
   seem to be enough people using XMPP for it to continue on an upward
   trajectory. It might not see the hockey stick growth that other
   protocols do, but it also hasn't flamed out, which I fear may happen
   with some of the newer, more hyped protocols. Denver
   <[5][14]https://jmp.chat/> References 1.
   [15]https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Conversations.im 2.
   [16]https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html 3.
   [17]https://matrix.org/clients/ 4.
   [18]https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0423.html#im 5.
   [19]https://jmp.chat/

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References

   1. https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Conversations.im
   2. mailto:marinus.savoritias@disroot.org
   3. mailto:denver@ossguy.com
   4. https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html
   5. https://matrix.org/clients/
   6. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0423.html#im
   7. https://jmp.chat/
   8. https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Conversations.im
   9. mailto:marinus.savoritias@disroot.org
  10. mailto:denver@ossguy.com
  11. https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html
  12. https://matrix.org/clients/
  13. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0423.html#im
  14. https://jmp.chat/
  15. https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Conversations.im
  16. https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html
  17. https://matrix.org/clients/
  18. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0423.html#im
  19. https://jmp.chat/
  20. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org
  21. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss