Re: Concert pitch question (confused ex-tuba player)

[antlists]

On 17/09/2021 22:09, Kenneth Wolcott wrote:
>    I know, as an ex-tuba player (and a very low-level amatuer tuba
> player), that tuba and trombone (bassoon?) don't require transposition
> as they are already in concert pitch (I never played a tuba in the key
> of C, F or Eb). 

Tuba and trombone don't need transposition? OH YES THEY DO!

I believe (or rather, I know for the trombone and believe for the tuba) 
that in the ORCHESTRA they are written in bass clef in concert pitch. So 
an orchestral trombone is a "Bb trombone in C".

But in a brass band, they are written in treble clef, and a written C is 
the instrument's fundamental harmonic, so a band trombone - despite 
being the exact same instrument - is a "Bb trombone in Bb" (and of 
course there's an exception to every rule - the bass trombone is 
written, in concert, in bass clef!)

So the simple rule when describing an instrument is, if the note is 
BEFORE the instrument name, it describes the fundamental of the 
instrument - Bb trombone, Eb trombone, F horn, Bb/F trombone. If the 
note comes AFTER the instrument, it denotes the note that actually 
sounds when you play a written C - bass clef trombone in C plays a C 
when you read a C, treble clef trombone in Bb plays a Bb when you read a C.
Note that the pitch after the instrument name should ONLY EVER be the 
fundamental, or C.

As a trombone player in both brass and concert bands, who reads both 
bass and treble clef, I always transpose my music on input into concert 
pitch. So if I've got a bass clef part, I enclose the music in 
"\transpose c c {}". And if I've got a treble clef part I enclose it in 
"\transpose c'' bf {}" (that takes it down a ninth, not a second).

Then when I output it, likewise I wrap it again in "\transpose c c {}" 
for bass clef, or "\transpose c' bf {}" for treble_8 clef (note I 
transpose treble clef an octave and the music a second here).

> However most of the other wind instruments of an
> orchestra are not in concert pitch.  So when there is a trumpet in Bb,
> it certainly is not the same as a tuba in Bb, correct?  What about
> Horn in F?

APART FROM OCTAVE a trumpet in Bb IS the same as a tuba in Bb - or any 
other instrument in Bb for that matter, eg clarinet.

And I can't think of anything else in F, but if a guy with a Bb/F 
trombone played with the trigger down all the time, it would be exactly 
the same as the horn in F.

> What happens when the overall pitch of the piece in
> question is not C Major?

Irrelevant. If I'm playing a piece in concert C, in treble clef, I have 
to revert the two flats introduced by the transposition, so my music is 
in the key of D with two sharps.

And bear in mind that, unlike some other music software, lilypond 
"thinks" internally in terms of pitch, not "position in the scale", so 
when you transpose lilypond will worry about accidentals and key 
signatures. Just make sure that on output, you include the key signature 
INSIDE the transpose, so that gets transposed too.

Cheers,
Wol