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Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US
From: |
Pierce T . Wetter III |
Subject: |
Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US |
Date: |
Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:56:03 -0700 |
On Jul 20, 2004, at 11:15 AM, nadim wrote:
On Tuesday 20 July 2004 00:52, Pierce T.Wetter III wrote:
Lots of crap about Irak cut off. Piece, If I ever get to be a tyran,
I'd
like you to handle my foreign politics, you ARE good. I'like very much
the
humanist grand father story, almost made me cry. It's a pity I don't
have
time (and I choose not to) to answer all your mails.
This impenetrable, self-centered, borderline crazy attitude Americans
have toward the use of deadly force is what sometimes scares their
friends even more than their enemies.
Too peaceful a history most of us think. Having not experienced the
horrors so much of war, perhaps it gets glorified. However, we're not
really as bloodthirsty as I probably implied either, I was trying to
explain the depths of our anger, not the breadth.
About "Too peaceful a history":
What the .......!!!!!?ยงยงยง Is that a joke?
How about "haven't been invaded enough?" is that more clear? Most of
the
world has had the horror of armies marching across their territory.
Outside of the Civil War, America hasn't experienced that, and we still
endlessly analyze the Civil War, and are just now starting to
understand it.
So when people from other countries tell us that we are too cavalier
about
the use of deadly force, they're probably right, and that's the reason
(we think).
Perhaps you have a different theory for why that is, that somehow we're
all Rambos or that Bush is this evil dictator, but the world was saying
this
about us long before Rambo or Bush.
About Bloodthirsty:
You didn't answer my request for you to count bombs, victims, political
maneuvers to hols dictatures in place, the very disgusting fact that
you
act where you want and close the your eyes when it best fits you. What
hurst most is that I realy believe tha americans are not more
bloodthursty
than any other (but no less unfortunately) but please put some order in
you judgement and try to acknowledge the facts.
I didn't say we weren't as bloodthirsty as others, I merely said
we weren't has bloodthirsty as to actually nuke an innocent population
which
is what I'd implied before. I can say positive things about the US
without
that being a negative to other countries.
We did a lot of questionable things in the Cold War, I'm not going to
dispute
that. One of the things Bush has tried to do in some cases is put a
stop to that now that the Cold War is over. In American terms, move
from a Cold War foreign policy back to a Wilsonian. How successful that
will be I don't know, as the State
Department has lots of people that think its ok to have "our" dictator,
even after
9/11, Iraq, etc.
Unfortunately, the war on terror seems to have these conflicting goals.
We want
cooperation from a number of nations who also have governments we'd
like to
see more free. (Saudi Arabia being one of them, Pakistan another). So
we want the Saudi's to help us with terrorism, while liberalizing their
country...and we've been pushing more on the former then the latter.
That bugs me. I see terrorism as a starfish. Al Queda, Al-Whatever,
are all
limbs of the starfish. If you cut them off, they'll just grow back, or
even
grow a whole new starfish. To wipe out terrorism, you have to kill the
head,
and the head in this case is the widespread tyranny of the arab world.
Some
of that is blowback from the Cold War, some of that is the resource
curse (countries
rich in resources tend to become dominate by a few elite, happens to
developed countries too), some of that is the fault of the Soviets, and
some of that is a result of the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the
greed of Europe after then end of
WWI. There's enough blame to go around.
So I see the challenge for American foreign policy is that it needs to
make
the minimum short term promises to evil dictators that let us keep our
population safe, while working on our long term goal of democracy for
everyone, everywhere.
About the depth:
So you get angry because 3000 people die because of a sick bastard,
you're
ready to kill everybody just after. Fine, it's very understandable. So
you
think Bush didn't over react just after? I agree, I was even surprised
he
didn't act more stupid than he did. But let put the cards on the table.
How many civilians have been killed in Afganistan and Irak since?
Iraq: http://civilians.info/iraq/ has 2081 records. (Link from an
Iraqi
blogger. )
Does it matter that Saddam was killing 10,000 a month? I don't know. I
don't
think the stand that someone else was more evil then you excuses your
own
perfidy. There are some moral absolutes, and one of them is that
killing is
bad.
However, inaction can also be morally wrong too.
Are we
getting the same history going on again?
I hope not. I really hope that the Terror War is better run then the
Cold War, and I wish we didn't have any war at all. Then so does
everyone on the planet. Perhaps I'll see that in my lifetime as more
countries become democratic.
just remembering the US
casualties in Vietnam but none of the 5 millions people you
slaughtered?
How many people die because of the US right now? what are 3000 people
compared to hiroshima? or don't they count because they were
foreigners?
Too peacfull history? was it 20 or 25 millions indians you killed? in
any
case that's twice as much as Hitler. Nice score indeed.
You want me to tell you we've been innocent? I'm not going to do that.
I'm not going to apologize for our actions during the Cold War either.
What I believe is that you belicous depth is more than your human
depth.
What I mean about breadth vs. depth is that in the depth of our soul
there
were people of the "nuke em all" mindset. In the breadth of our soul,
there
were people of the "we deserved it" mindset.
5 mn after the bombing of 9/11 no one was working anymore at my
workplace.
No one liked it but I'd lie if I say all were surprised. We were
actually
surprised it didn happend before (If you ask me if the terrorist have
won,
I'd say yes, you're shiting you pants and you are paying for it as
much as
you make others pay for it). Anyway, something struck me. I saw on TV a
black guy (a soldier) crying and saying: "I want to go there, yes let
me
go there" that was to war of course. As much as I want to respect his
feelings (I guess that they are as genuine as palestinians, columbian
or
israeli feeling) but I must say what a F.. Jerk. Sure it looks very
patriotic (patriotic, what a very ugly worrd) but what's the meaning of
all you demence? Why is the US involved in war, massacres, and ugly
political plots? Why can't you show your nice face? affraid of looking
weak? rest assured that your "force" only look as weakness to the rest
of
the world.
Because the world keeps trying to get us involved. US foreign policy
is either so isolationist you could scream, or so bellicose you have to.
I was in the states a few years ago, I wanted to see by myself.
Believe it
or not, I actually liked it (not to the point of moving there). It
realy
twists my gusts with despear to like the people of you country and be
disgusted by the acts of your representents (your acts since you are
_the_
democracy).
Want to make a diffrence in the world? Want peace everywhere? Show you
have
a heart instead for a bunch of macho idiots always ready to jump the
first
small country around. Want the US to be loved as much outside the US
as it
is inside? Show some force of character.
Like most non USians, you seem to think that we're of one mind and
voice,
and that you can get the good instead of the bad. It doesn't work that
way.
If you've been to the US, you've seen the chaos and having the US
involved
in the world means we bring that chaos to you.
So you get special forces sneaking into Baghdad, and Sean Penn flying
there
as a tourist, you get soldiers abusing prisioners and other americans
from
Human Rights Watch reporting them. Everything we do is kind of wildly
chaotic.
Its part of the weirdness of America, its part of our greatness too.
(And just to head you off, I can say America is great without implying
that
your country isn't. I'm not one of those americans who thinks that other
countries have the slogan "we're number 2". All citizens like their
country
best it seems...)
Happy voting. Nadim.
Joke: Yeah, so the Democrats were so upset about having the country
ruled by a
rich white guy that they found two richer, whiter guys to run against
him.
Pierce
- Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, (continued)
[Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, Tom Lord, 2004/07/12
Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, John Seifarth, 2004/07/19
Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, nadim, 2004/07/20
Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, Robert Anderson, 2004/07/26
Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, Robert Anderson, 2004/07/26
Re: [Gnu-arch-users] [OT] facism gaining ground in US, Robert Anderson, 2004/07/26