Re: Web: Download: Add introductory text (issue 40510046)

[Urs Liska]

Am 16.12.2013 06:15, schrieb Graham Percival:
> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 01:23:51PM +0100, Urs Liska wrote:
> > Am 15.12.2013 06:47, schrieb Graham Percival:
> > > 2) they noticed the existing, read the "text input" page, but were
> > > still confused.  Solution: improve the "text input" page.
> >
> > I think the only issue with "text input" might be that it isn't
> > explicit (or rather suggestive) enough about the editing
> > environment.
>
> Then it should be fixed.

OK. I think this can be a very small patch, and I'll give it a try.
After https://codereview.appspot.com/40570043/ has been pushed.

> > > Was it clear from the discussion on -user which of those problems
> > > it was?
> >
> > Not unambiguously clear. But it seems clear that we will have to
> > take into account that people will proceed directly to the Download
> > page without reading anything of the introduction or the Features
> > page at most.
>
> Hence the warning.

I'm still not sure whether the current "Note" (be it restyled or not) is 
better to "embrace" the user than a regular text box.

But I suggest to postpone this whole issue and do a few other things 
first (see below) because they might change our view with regard to the 
"Download" landing page. (I.e. I'd "revoke" the patch and upload a few 
other ones first, when these are settled I'll/we'll review the state of 
the Download page.)

> > > Maybe another whole page about "sample
> > > usage", or something like that?
> >
> > Maybe this should even be split: One dedicated page explaining the
> > concept of IDEs, similar to the Text Input page but less elaborate,
> > and another page that more or less lists available editors (i.e. the
> > current "Easier editing" page with some modifications).
>
> I like that idea.  So there would be 3 pages in Introduction:
> - lilypond is text input

Which would be more or less the current "Text input" page plus a small 
patch as mentioned above.

> - text input means you write text

Which I suggest to be named "Editing".

> - list of available editors

which should be called "Editors" or "Editing environments"???

> > It was consensus that new users should actively be encouraged to
> > download one of the complete environments, namely Frescobaldi or
> > Denemo, which would then take care of installing LilyPond.

Actually there already is an issue for it:
https://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=3716

> Is Frescobaldi available on OSX?  It's lacking the appropriate
> symbol on the easier-editing page.
> ... apparently it's only available in macports.  That isn't
> something that we should ask most users to try.

https://github.com/dliessi/ports/blob/master/INSTALL-Frescobaldi.md
is the current installation instruction for OSX.
I can't tell what this actually implies, but maybe it really isn't 
suitable as a "first choice" recommendation.

> Denemo is not available on FreeBSD or OSX (accoring to the
> symbols) so we can't recommend it without deliberately ignoring
> some users.  Granted, anybody using freebsd will already know how
> things work, but we shouldn't ignore OSX users, particularly since
> many composers prefer OSX.

According to http://denemo.org/downloads-page/
Denemo is available on Linux, Mac and Windows.


So I'm not sure what that all means: Can we recommend it, particularly 
for first-time users?

And if not, what should we recommend instead?
We definitely want new users to have a path to a at least partially 
comfortable first editing environment. That was the initial motivation 
for all this discussion.
Particularly for Windows users it is not acceptable that they're 
confronted with LilyPad alone which doesn't even offer syntax 
highlighting plus a Desktop icon that doesn't behave as Windows programs 
usually do.

It wasn't absolutely decided (although I think there's no other option) 
that LilyPond can't be responsible for installing third party tools. The 
idea was rather to point to these third party tools - and if these were 
able to care for installing LilyPond, even better.

So: Is there any acceptable environment available that we can recommend 
for all OSs?

This could be to some extent discussed on a new "Editing" page, i.e. not 
on the top of the Download page and only very shortly on the Editors 
list page. Somthing along the lines of "on Windows you can use 
Frescobaldi or Denemo, on Mac OSX too, but Frescobaldi installation is 
more involved there etc."


> > I think the considerations about "chattiness" of texts or redundancy
> > of information are suitable and necessary for the docs, but much
> > less for the website.
>
> I think that suitable chattiness is even *more* important for the
> website.  Adding text is the easiest thing to do to docs, but can
> often make users turn off their brains and not read stuff.  My
> rule of thumb is that doubling the text results in half the number
> of people reading it.
>
> > The website doesn't have to be redundancy-free document with every
> > information exactly once and in the right place (which it is far
> > from currently BTW). It should rather be a comfortable place for
> > potential new users who aren't already familiar with LilyPond or
> > text based toolchains in general.
>
> Right.  So let's direct new users to the best explanation we have
> for how lilypond works.  Not a 3-sentence summary of the
> situation.  Direct them to a whole page with images, examples,
> screenshots, video screencasts, embedded youtube videos, etc.
> If somebody is unfamiliar with text input, you cannot give a good
> explanation in 3 sentences that they will understand.  You can't,
> I can't, nobody can.  It's a whole different concept.
>
> Sure, we could add 3 pages of material to the top of the download
> page (and presumably the top of the Windows download page as
> well).  But that would annoy experienced users.  Solution: use a
> short notice to get newbies onto a dedicated page for them.

So I'll go ahead and make suggestions along the lines discussed here.
Maybe the need for my original patch will have vanished by that or at 
least significantly changed.

Urs

> - Graham