Re: subito dynamic after hairpin

[wjm]

On 23/08/12 17:06, Tiresia GIUNO wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Aug 2012 07:35:51 +1200
> wjm <address@hidden> wrote:
> > On 23/08/12 00:36, Phil Holmes wrote:
> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "wjm" <address@hidden>
> > > To: <address@hidden>; "Lilypond-User List"
> > > <address@hidden>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 12:32 PM
> > > Subject: Re: subito dynamic after hairpin
> > >
> > >
> > > >  From your reply...
> > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > > > > Given that sfz is equal to subito-forzando
> > > > > (see
> > > > > http://piano.about.com/od/termsrelatingtodynamics/g/GL_subito.htm)
> > > >
> > > > That page at piano.about.com is incorrect (and silly). sfz is not
> > > > equal to subito forzando; it seems that the English-speaking
> > > > about.com writers weren't sure what any of these words meant, and
> > > > decided that instead of simply checking an Italian dictionary,
> > > > they would make something up. In fact, "sforzando" is an ordinary
> > > > and legitimate word, not an abbreviation for anything else, and in
> > > > fact the word "subito" is rarely (probably never) represented in
> > > > scores by a single letter "s" - too vague. ("sub." gets used
> > > > fairly often, but perhaps even more often the word is spelled out.)
> > > >
> > > > It's sad that people (this is directed at the about.com hacks, not
> > > > at you) see fit to publish made-up definitions of words they don't
> > > > know.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > My criticism of the clueless & irresponsible writers of that page
> > > > has no bearing on the value of what you have contributed to the
> > > > Lilypond discussion. While your discovery is (through no fault of
> > > > yours) probably not useful in this particular situation, I hope it
> > > > proves useful for other purposes.
> > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > > >
> > > > I have no intention of taking part in a war of words :)
> > > > The following links might shed a faint light on the 'confusion' at
> > > > the site I quoted (assuming 'they' know what they're talking about
> > > > - I'm in no position to judge!)
> > > >
> > > > http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sforzando
> > > > http://www.thefreedictionary.com/subito
> > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamics_%28music%29#Words.2Fphrases_indicating_changes_of_dynamics
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Particularly note the image in the TR coner of this page
> > > > 'Subito forzando' and 'piano' dynamics in Beethoven's String
> > > > Quartet in A Major, Op. 18, no. 5, III, variation I, m. 7-8.
> > > >
> > > > So does sfz mean sforzando or subito forzando ? :)
> > > >
> > > > Would explaining what "subito mf" means to a possibly not
> > > > completely erudite set of performers be any more difficult than
> > > > explaining what "smf" means?
> > > >
> > > > Oh well.
> > > >
> > > > I thought English was bad enough in having two ways of doing
> > > > things - apparently the Italians do as well.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > > Bill
> > >
> > >
> > > Looks like an internet urban myth.  My Grove does not mention
> > > sforzando as being anything other than being from the Italian for
> > > forced.  My Chambers dictionary defines it as coming from the
> > > present participle of the Italian sforzare.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Phil Holmes
> >
> > ? Any Italian linguists out there??
> > :)
> > 'Nuff said.
> >
> > However, if a prepositioned-s before any dynamic is meaningful why
> > doesn't LP include them 'all' in the dynamics definition file.
> >
> > "The available dynamic marks are \ppppp, \pppp, \ppp, \pp, \p, \mp,
> > \mf, \f, \ff, \fff, \ffff, \fffff, \fp, \sf, \sff, \sp, \spp, \sfz,
> > and \rfz." (NR)
> >
> > What exactly is the meaning of sff? In my limited experience singing
> > with a small chamber choir I saw sfz but don't recall ever seeing sff
> > or any other s-dynamic.
> >
> > Regards
> > Bill
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > lilypond-user mailing list
> > address@hidden
> > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>
> As Italian and as composer I can confirm that "sfz" was _never_ intended
> as "subito forzando". I see this interpretation of "sfz" as "subito
> fz" also in wikipedia:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamics_(music)
>
> but it refers to an empty and untrustworthy source.
>
> In Italian language you can find "forzare" and "sforzare".
>
> "sforzATO" is as "forced" the past participle of "sforzare" (whit
> passive meaning) while "sforzANDO" means "forcing" and is the "present
> gerund" - you don't have this form in English, but it is translated
> with the "-ing form". Another similar example is glissato and glissando.
>
> In my experience "sf" is the same as "sfz".
>
> Since "sfz" and "sf" is a sort of "marked accent" (that at the same time
> can imply a light temporal changement) you can apply it in different
> dynamics context, i.e. you can find it in p music as well as in f and
> ff music. Therefore you can use sfzp (or sforzato nel piano) - which is
> different than "fp" (fortepiano).
>
> For "subito" you always need either to write the whole word or to
> abbreviate it to "sub." (the same for "simile" or "sim.", "ordinario"
> or "ord." and so on...)
>
> And as far as I can remember (but I'm not sure!) you find the word
> "sub." after the dynamics and in italics (while the dynamics is
> italics _and_ bold)
>
> Regards, TG

Many thanks Tiresia,
It all goes to show that one must take everything on the Inter-Web thing 
with a grain of salt. (sometimes, with a bag of it!)

Taking all that has gone before, where must Curt Siffert place his 
'subito' text to make whatever it is he requires musically correct and 
meaningful? Perhaps a scan of a simple hand-drawn example would suffice, 
perhaps with a written explanation as well? And what would be the 
method/LP code to do it?
(the last is beyong me, I afraid!)
Regards
Bill