[Axiom-developer] Re: Fricas

[Bill Page]

On 7/26/07, Tim Daly wrote:
> > But you are paying the bills for the entire axiom-developer.org server
> > so I have complied with your request. To me this clearly demonstrates
> > that an open source project (like Axiom used to be) should *never*
> > allow themselves to get into a situation where significant project
> > resources are controlled by only one individual. Never - even if you
> > once strongly believed in that person's good intentions.
>
> I don't believe *I* mentioned anything about the axiom-developer server.

??? The Axiom Wiki runs on the axiom-developer server.

> I don't believe *I* "forced" you to remove your changes BECAUSE *I*
> "control" the server. You have root access on the server and you have
> never needed to ask my permission. If you removed your changes for
> the stated reasons you have misconstrued my statements.

Tim,

On Jul 25, 2007 11:46 PM you wrote:

> I see that you've decided to update the pages
> <http://wiki.axiomm-developer.org/AxiomCommunity>
> to include the fricas project. We discussed this issue previously
> on the mailing list.
> ...
> I strongly object to the dilution of the Axiom name and resources
> implied by your action. A fork implies the decision NOT to share
> resources. Please do NOT promote Fricas as Axiom in any forum.
> They are two entirely separate projects.
>
> We clearly disagree on this point.
>
> Until we have a mechanism for voting in place, and a vote is taken
> that results in community discussion and agreement that Fricas
> should be promoted as you have done,
> I ask you to remove your edits.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Tim
--------

You did not force me, you asked me. I complied. But it made me very
angry. The Axiom Wiki is a public wikiwiki website. That means
*anybody* in the world can edit and change pages any time they want.
Instead you asked *me* to remove *my* changes. That is what really
made me mad. If you objected to what I wrote, why didn't *you* change
it?

The fact that that you personally pay for the axiom-developer.org
server (about $250 per month, now I think!) where the Axiom Wiki runs
makes me feel that I am compelled to do what you ask even if I
disagree.

> It is not clear how you can be shocked about the request to remove updates.
> We specifically had this discussion on the mailing list.
> <http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/axiom-developer/2007-07/msg00121.html>
> <http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/axiom-developer/2007-07/msg00123.html>
> <http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/axiom-developer/2007-07/msg00146.html>

Editorial policy on a public wiki is a tricky business (as I am sure
most people well understand from the fantastic success and serious
tribulations of the wikipedia project). I am shocked that you want to
exercise editorial control over the Axiom Wiki site but are not
prepared to  use it yourself.

> My objections are stated in terms of the resources of the Axiom project,
>   * the goals of the Axiom project
>   * the Axiom trademark
>   * the history of the project
>   * the goodwill associate with the Axiom name
>   * the savannah project site
>   * the sourceforge project site
>   * the Axiom mailing lists
>   * the publications such as the Axiom books, thesis work, etc
>   * the work associated with the source code and documentation
>   * the public presentation of "Axiom"
>   * and, yes, the wiki server

Do you mean your "objections" to my edits? I do not understand how my
edits affect the resources of the Axiom project. From my point of view
FriCAS itself is a resource from the point of view the Axiom project.
If for whatever reason we can't work together with Waldek in the Axiom
project then at least Axiom still has access to his skills and the
work of some other people through FriCAS. It is not the ideal
situation but it is not a net loss. (I think at least Clifford Yapp
agrees with me on this.) Devoting a little of the Axiom project's
resources to track what is happening in FriCAS just seems very
sensible to me.

Your mention of trademark, history and goodwill just seems silly to
me. Trademark is a non-issue. This is not a commercial enterprise and
no one to my knowledge (except perhaps NAG 10 years ago) has attempted
to register such a mark. History is what we make of it. Most important
is that the contributions of other people continue to be recognized.
And although it is wearing a little thin, goodwill still exists here,
I think.

Because of *your* insistence FriCAS has it's own SourceForge project
site (instead of continuing as the wh-sandbox branch in the Axiom
project). FriCAS also has it's own email list hosted by Google. I
thought Axiom users might want to have this information available to
them along side the lists of Axiom and Aldor email lists on the
AxiomCommunity page. But you asked me to remove these edits.

I plan to give a public presentation (Software exhibit) on Axiom at
the upcoming ISSAC 2007 conference. (See attached abstract.) And I
have also arranged with the conference organizers to have a meeting
specifically about Axiom on Monday evening 7:30 PM. Are you going to
say if I happen to mention FriCAS once or twice that I am somehow
mis-using Axiom "resources, history, goodwill", etc. ?

> If someone writes algebra that only works in FriCAS and not in Axiom
> but says that it is "Axiom algebra", could someone be confused?

No. This can be easily explained to any beginning user of Axiom and
FriCAS - especially if no one closes their eyes about what is
happening in the FriCAS project. Are you confused about algebra that
only works in Aldor but not Aldor in Axiom? Right now FriCAS is
identical to Axiom in the algebra code that it runs. But FriCAS has
solved some problems with the algebra bootstrap that have not been
solved yet in Axiom. So the potential certainly exists for new algebra
code to be written that can not (yet) be compiled in Axiom. (We have
been discussing that in another thread on MonoidRing.) As far as I
know it is the intention of everyone involved that Axiom will
eventually be able to compile this code.

> If a paper appears at ISSAC next year stating it was done on Axiom
> but was done on FriCAS and won't work on Axiom what can we say?
> Could someone be confused?

I don't think so. All it takes is one sentence of explanation.

> If a CD appears in public with the label "Axiom" but contains the
> code from the FriCAS project and the person finds bugs should he
> post them to the Axiom mailing list? Could someone be confused?

Well, I think *most* people would like to continue to use the name
Axiom generically to refer to computer algebra systems that have
evolved from the IBM ScratchPad project. I don't think there is much
room for confusion here - certainly not more than already exists. It
would be very easy to include both FriCAS and Aldor as categories in
the IssueTracker system on the Axiom Wiki.

> If the code from FriCAS appears in public with the label Axiom
> but contains only source code and no pamphlet files, could a
> person be confused if they think the Axiom goal of literate
> programming is gone?

No. The respective goals have been clearly stated by both you and
Waldek. If a disk is mislabelled as Axiom when it is really
FriCAS-specific then that is just a clerical error.

> If someone demonstrates FriCAS and it has abilities that don't
> work in Axiom could someone be confused?

That is easily explained and one very good reason why I think FriCAS
should continued to be discussed in the Axiom email lists and on the
Axiom wiki. To do otherwise is just to invite the type of confusion to
which you refer.

> FriCAS is capable of developing its own resources.
> That's what a fork is.

A fork is a failure to communicate (which also happens to be the cause
of most wars :-(

Regards,
Bill Page.