Re: GNUstep SoftWare Index - new project home and sources of the tool

[Banlu Kemiyatorn]

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 2:13 AM, Ivan Vučica <ivucica@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would not like to go on discussing this, since this list is primarily
> about GNUstep, not about wikis versus specialized databases.
> I will make no further replies on this subject.

I think it's clearly about how a building of a GNUstep software index
page should be done and may be worth reading in future by anyone who
is interested. Leaving the discussion doesn't make anyone's statement
less right. In the final decision someone's going to make, they still
need a reasoning process. I felt it's important to make it clear what
you think, not why you are right or why you aren't wrong. Because the
process of reasoning could help developing the conclusion for the
others in future.

> On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 19:51, Banlu Kemiyatorn <object@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > What's the big deal about making nightly dumps of the SQL, sans the user
>> > account data.
>>
>> No big deal if you make it available publicly and documented and have
>> storage and integrity (if the database was designed to support
>> integrity records then this is not necessary)
>
> "mysqldump" is a most excellent tool.

I use that weekly.

>> As long as you sacrifice the flexibilities.
>
> Flexibility is not sacred.
> Let's keep everything in a text file, shall we?

Why do you think text file is more flexible than a wiki?

>> Why do you want a wiki at all if you just want a storage?
>
> I have no idea. Why do you want a wiki to describe entities with properties?
> :)

For instance, it's more extensible by anyone without access to the php
code or sql by practice. If you open a connection to SQL server to
manipulate entries, how would you log or revert bad changes?

>> Of course but if you actually follow the thread the point was clearly
>> made that we don't have to maintain the Wiki at all as it will be
>> maintained by people who aren't interested in GNUstep project, hence,
>> we will have more man power to actually work on GNUstep.
>
> I did not read the entire thread; I'm certain you are familiar with "tl;dr".

I see. I wasn't sure if guessing is a productive behavior, but
statistically CPU did that and is still productive right?

> If you can find people uninterested in GNUstep to truly maintain a GNUstep
> software index, that's excellent :-)

Well, just maintain the Wiki. Software index still need man hours.
ie. SQL + PHP > Wiki (maintained by third party) + PHP

>> Easier to use? I think it must be a wiki + php front ends since there
>> are more options available for different kind of usages.
>
> You mean like an external link to a wiki page? Agreed, having a secondary
> presentation is good. After a user finds the program, then getting more info
> about it is important!

No, what I meant was a PHP hosted on gnustep.org submitting record via
wiki bot API  to a wiki + extensions bots don't understand but will
just leave them alone.

>> If you put one or two persons who should code or learn to code for
>> GNUstep to maintain a full features web app then there's even less
>> people to help with the actual product.
>
> Same if you put people to maintain the wiki. Disinterested people are just
> that -- disinterested people. :-)
> Just like people who like maintaining wikis can't work in Objective-C, there
> are people who like working in PHP that can't work in Objective-C.
> Also, it is wrong to assume that someone interested in GNUstep is interested
> in working *on* GNUstep.
>

I am sticking with
SQL + PHP > Wiki (maintained by third party) + PHP

But if PHP->Wiki bot needs more time for the maintainer to learn than
PHP->SQL then I'd also minus the invaluable benefit of the system
being more open to community to the left side and weight again. Must
find another invaluable factor on the right side.

>> Clean up is just a matter of revert, but as I said that bot with front
>> end would do the job with extra benefits and possibly less code.
>
> In my statement, I made a point of people not entering bad data in the first
> place. One may want to make a good move and enter info about
> "HelloWorld123.app", but messes up the wiki page by using incorrect markup,
> or by not consistently using upper/lowercase, etc. In that case, cleanup is
> not something a bot can do, and it is something a human must evaluate
> carefully.

I'd just revert the change. Inform them about the PHP front end we
have prepared or just let them edit again.

>> I do trust Wiki People to certain level especially for the capability
>> to learn, to be obsessed and to get involved. I don't trust a system's
>> judgment as much. Note that I don't tell you to trust or not to trust
>> anything.
>
> I can tell you I don't trust any users -- and I don't like the idea of
> anyone having to sanitize user input :-)

Okay.

>> > You keep repeating the "less flexible" as if it is a bad thing in this
>> > case.
>> > It is not. Having a consistent, easily browsable list is preferable in
>> > case
>> > of software.
>>
>> I don't think I say it is bad and I also don't say it is good as well.
>> What I tried to explain was that your solution wasn't better in all
>> scope.
>
> With this, I agree.

Yeh, I also agree with myself there.


>> And do they improve the quality of their users for their roles as a
>> good community members by doing that? Or just suck their money as
>> their customer are losing ability to realize the important of freedom
>> and how to maintain it?
>
> What I see is that customers enjoy it enough to be willing to even fork over
> the money and the freedom. Increasing user satisfaction and bettering his
> experience does not mean we have to take away his freedom, or vice versa.
> Besides, you're deliberately diverting the subject to the importance of
> freedom, which is not discussed here, and which is something I agree with
> you on. (Mostly.)

My point was that user should maintain their freedom by being allowed
to do whatever they wish and learn the consequence rather by being
stop to experience, like appending too many tags.

>> You meant "Using a wiki alone for everything"
>
> This is how I understood you. My apologies if I did not understand you.

No need though, really. I should be blamed for my English and other
issues as well (I am sure there are others but I hardly notice them).

>> I sure can tell you that everything can be done with a wiki but why
>> would I do that.
>
> It appears that indeed I did not understand you correctly. Hm.

I am still in the reasoning process. I don't even know for sure where
it would end.

>> It's good to make an opinion but it is not good to judge that I want
>> to do everything by a wiki based on only that I suggest to use it at
>> the core of the system and ignore a few points I made. So if I did
>> that please also let me know.
>
> I guess I should not have drawn conclusions. Nevertheless, I believe making
> the wiki the core of the system is incorrect as well. It would be a nice
> supplement, but not a good primary source of information about projects.

At this point I think I've made myself clear.

-- 
    .----.     Banlu Kemiyatorn
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