Re: Suggested experimental test

[Jean Louis]

* Gregory Heytings <gregory@heytings.org> [2021-03-22 20:08]:
> 
> > > > Well... the suggested experiment does not remove C-o, it changes
> > > > C-o in a way that is, I believe, painless.
> > > 
> > > Sorry; I didn't read the patch carefully.  So it basically moves
> > > `C-o' to `C-o C-o' (and makes the `C-o' prefix open for new
> > > commands)?
> > > 
> > > I don't use `C-o' myself, so I can't really say to what degree this
> > > would be annoying or not for users.  Any `C-o' users who have an
> > > opinion here?
> > 
> > For now I count 3 people from mailing lists who already objected to it,
> > including me.
> > 
> 
> I've only seen one (you), and perhaps a second one (Alfred), but I'm not
> quite sure because he initially thought that open-line would be
> removed.

Plus Rudolf Schlatte who explained using `C-o` frequently. Those are 3 for now.

> > How do you Lars insert new lines, before the current line with cursor?
> > 
> 
> I can't speak for Lars, but if this is something that I frequently needed, I
> would either learn the C-p C-e C-m sequence, or make it a command in my init
> file, for example:
> 
> (global-set-key (kbd "M-RET") (lambda () (interactive) (previous-line) 
> (end-of-line) (newline-and-indent)))
> 
> (M-RET has a similar purpose in org-mode.)

That is good that you tell how you do it. Sounds funny to me,
obviously we have different ways to getting to same result. I am
inserting lines frequently and I would never think of using `C-p C-e
C-m` -- which now makes sense, as from your side you probably do not
insert lines, so for you `C-o` does not make sense.

In considerations if some change is useful one has to consider also
what other people are doing when they want to achieve functionality X,
in this case `open-line` which is often used to insert new lines
before the current one.

>From your viewpoint, you are already using 3 keys to get to the
result, for you is fine to replace `C-o` with `C-o C-o` as that one
would any way shorten your own 3-keys sequence. But it looks like you
do not even use C-o to open a new line, like `C-a C-o` seems something
you did not use when cursor is not at beginning of wthe line.

Meeting users and their behavior of editing in relation to specific
feature is better, it is more productive, and gives more insights.

> > Gregory, don't you think that 3 users including me who expressed their
> > objections is not part of the experiment already?
> 
> No, precisely because nobody actually experimented the potential
> change. You cannot give an opinion on a change before experimenting
> it for some time, say, at least a day.

I am also thankful for that insight. For me, the experiment begins
with the simple introduction at the moment of understanding it. For
you it begins then when people actually start using it -- but you miss
the fact that some people would not even start experimenting with it
as they do not find it useful in the first place and do not want to
change their habits.

Experiment should not be conducted for the sake of experiment
alone. It should be conducted to improve the usability or user
experience with editor.

In my opinion, experiments of changing key bindings should not be
conducted with the purpose of introduction of new commands, but with
the purpose of making usability or user experience or efficiency of
editing better.

Checklist for key binding experiments:

1. [ ] - Conduct research, is the key binding included in Emacs-like
   editors like Emacs on Guile, Zile on Guile, Zile, mg, e3m, MIT
   Scheme's Edwin, and maybe few other similar.

2. [ ] - Conduct online research if the command and key binding is
   frequently asked for by users, review occurences of mentioning the
   command and the key binding on EmacsWiki, manual, and other
   websites by using search engines.

3. [ ] - Instead of proposing the experiment too early, ask people how
   they are doing the functionality X -- don't ask if they are using
   specific command `you-name-it`; example is how I have asked you and
   Lars "How are you inserting new line from the current line?" -- and
   I am still curious how people are doing it. Question is not really
   related to `C-o` or `open-line` but to the result of it that could
   be achieved by various different ways.

4. [ ] - Decide what is your proposal to replace key binding, define
   it well, but don't publish on the mailing list (or do publish).

5. [ ] - Compare your proposal to the existing key binding and the
   command and make list of reasons why would your replaced key
   binding be more useful and beneficial for users, user experience or
   efficiency in editing than the already present key binding. For
   example if you have never used `C-o` it would be better to fully
   understand its usage as it can be you have quite different idea on
   how to insert new lines. But if you did not understand usage of
   `C-o` you should or could assume that your proposal is maybe
   biased by your own user experience.

6. [ ] - After the review, if you think your proposal is improving
   editing efficiency, or usability, or user experience, then propose
   the new change. Provide patch, initiate experiments, or ask people
   about it.

7. [ ] - Do not assume that experiment, objections, protests, begin
   with the actual invokation of the experiment, as people on the
   mailing list already understand by reading the Emacs Lisp code,
   consider their opinions as valid objections and count them even if
   they did not practically experiment with it -- as they obviously
   did not find it practical to experiment with.

8. [ ] - Count pro and contras. Even if there are more positives for
   your experiment, do not assume that it would really enhance user
   experience, or that you got users' feedback, as we are on this
   mailing list testing Emacs in development stage, while users will
   be using it in their daily life. Consider various implications,
   breaking habits of millions of people. Consider butterfly effects
   before introducing it in new stable version of Emacs.

Jean