Re: Web: Download: Add introductory text (issue 40510046)

[Urs Liska]

Am 15.12.2013 06:47, schrieb Graham Percival:
> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 09:46:54AM +0000, address@hidden wrote:
> > On 2013/12/14 03:51:33, Graham Percival wrote:
> > > Umm, isn't the whole point of this to be a warning?  Why are you
> > removing the
> > > warning CSS tag?
> >
> > It's the whole point of this patch to raise this information to the
> > level of regular website text.
>
> Why?  So that it's not as obvious?

No. So that it's obvious on a different level.

> I imagine two situations in
> which people download the binary without knowing what they're
> getting.
>
> 1) they didn't notice the existing warning.  Solution: change the
> CSS to make it more prominent.

I don't think that a warning is the right approach in that context.
Most users will take a warning as a kind of side note, and if it doesn't 
look crucial (like "this may break your system" or "Works only on Ubuntu 
13.10 or later") they may put it aside for later consideration (if at all).

Of course this is an opinion I can't prove formally. If you say: It's 
all there, people should read it or should be forced to read it I can't 
formally object. Nevertheless I'm convinced that the approach should be 
modified.

> 2) they noticed the existing, read the "text input" page, but were
> still confused.  Solution: improve the "text input" page.

I think the only issue with "text input" might be that it isn't explicit 
(or rather suggestive) enough about the editing environment.

> Was it clear from the discussion on -user which of those problems
> it was?

Not unambiguously clear. But it seems clear that we will have to take 
into account that people will proceed directly to the Download page 
without reading anything of the introduction or the Features page at most.

> >  From discussion in several quite diversified threads on
> > lilypond-user it
> > became clear that people (i.e. potential new users) have to get a
> > clearer picture of what LilyPond and its infrastructure essentially are.
> > This was the whole idea of starting a website review.
>
> Ok.  That should be done in the introduction.  Maybe more images
> on the Text input page?

No, that page is good IMO.

> Maybe another whole page about "sample
> usage", or something like that?

I think I've already made a suggestion in this regard: Rename "Easier 
editing" to "Editing" and add an introduction there.
"Text input" and "Editing environments" are two concepts that have to be 
made explicit independently. I think the text input is explained very 
well, but the editing aspect is somewhat blurred, one could even 
perceive it as somewhat bashfully belittled.
Maybe this should even be split: One dedicated page explaining the 
concept of IDEs, similar to the Text Input page but less elaborate, and 
another page that more or less lists available editors (i.e. the current 
"Easier editing" page with some modifications).

> ... wait a moment, doesn't the Windows download page include
> screenshots of how to use the lilypond binary?  Did people fail to
> notice those screenshots?

Probably they fail to draw the right conclusions from it.

> > I don't think making the "Note" more visible will help with the fact
> > that people reaching the homepage, then click on "Download" get the
> > right picture from it. I think a regular box with "Before you proceed"
> > and the second stopper "You just wnat a new version?" will be more
> > effective than a warning box.
>
> I'm fine with rewording the warning box.  Text like "before you
> proceed" might be good.  However, I'm *not* fine with reproducing
> a bunch of explanations about how lilypond works.  We have a place
> to explain that: the introduction.  Either people aren't finding
> "Text input", or "Text input" needs work.

It was consensus that new users should actively be encouraged to 
download one of the complete environments, namely Frescobaldi or Denemo, 
which would then take care of installing LilyPond. Denemo already has 
LilyPond bundled, and Frescobaldi will/can be made to download and 
install LilyPond if needed.
The "Download" page *is* the right place for this IMO. And the regular 
text of that page.

###

I think the considerations about "chattiness" of texts or redundancy of 
information are suitable and necessary for the docs, but much less for 
the website.
The website doesn't have to be redundancy-free document with every 
information exactly once and in the right place (which it is far from 
currently BTW). It should rather be a comfortable place for potential 
new users who aren't already familiar with LilyPond or text based 
toolchains in general. If that requires some redundancy or colloquial 
style then it should have it.
One problem with the current website is that it contains too much 
content which is clearly written from a developer's perspective.
I have invested a considerable amount of energy and time to review the 
site by taking the POV of our target audience. This resulted in a first 
set of suggestions but there would also have to be considerable 
follow-up work, for example reworking the Community chapter.

I'm worried about the opposition even my first modest suggestions raise.
There will be patches with more involved changes to come. And if each 
tiny bit is discussed to death from exactly the developer's perspective 
that seems part of the problem, I'll surely consider it an inappropriate 
use of my time quite soon.

Urs

> - Graham
>
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