RE: Suggestion to make sharps and flats persistent

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Gentlepersons,

Without the "h" would we have Liszt's Fantasy and Fugue on BACH or Schumann's 
Six Fugues on  BACH?

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: lilypond-user [mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=address@hidden] On 
Behalf Of David Wright
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2020 11:46 AM
To: Hans Åberg <address@hidden>; David Nalesnik <address@hidden>
Cc: address@hidden
Subject: Re: Suggestion to make sharps and flats persistent

On Thu 14 May 2020 at 10:38:59 (+0200), Hans Åberg wrote:
> > On 14 May 2020, at 03:38, David Wright <address@hidden> wrote:
> > 
> > I can't say that I've met
> > English speakers in either the UK or US who use b and h for Bflat and B.
> > Under what circumstances do you hear it: amateur choirs and 
> > orchestral players, professionals, or in academic duscussions of German 
> > music?
> 
> In general, there is a divide in musical notation in Europe, one is Germany, 
> and to the north and south and east, and the other, the countries to the 
> west, France, England, etc.
> 
> One difference is the note names, H and B in the Germanic tradition [1], and 
> J.S. Bach used it [2].

Thank you, very useful.

On Thu 14 May 2020 at 07:45:23 (-0500), David Nalesnik wrote:
> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:39 PM David Wright <address@hidden> wrote:
> > On Wed 13 May 2020 at 16:35:48 (-0500), David Nalesnik wrote:
> > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 3:34 PM antlists <address@hidden> wrote:
> > > > On 13/05/2020 16:38, David Kastrup wrote:
> > > > > Given the number of English-speaking LilyPond users who all 
> > > > > share the somewhat strange habit of calling a b-flat "b" if 
> > > > > there is a flat in the key signature, it is sort of a safe bet 
> > > > > that you are not the first to make this kind of proposal.
> > > >
> > > > Are these the same ones who call b an h?
> > > >
> > > > Certainly for someone who's mother tongue is English (NOT 
> > > > American) I'd never call b-flat a b because how would I tell 
> > > > whether it's flat or not :-)
> > >
> > > ! hear it a lot in the US.  (And it's often correlated with losing 
> > > sight of the key signature...)
> >
> > Assuming ! stands for "I" and not negation, I can't say that I've 
> > met English speakers in either the UK or US who use b and h for Bflat and B.
> > Under what circumstances do you hear it: amateur choirs and 
> > orchestral players, professionals, or in academic duscussions of German 
> > music?
> 
> Hi David Wright,
> 
> Once again the name "David" rears its head!  You are mixing my 
> response with David Kastrup's

I think I would have as much difficulty doing that as my email client would.

AIUI David Kastrup lives in Germany, in b/h land, but without any context, I 
don't know whether this meant that he thought English-speaking LilyPond users 
were steeped in the Germanic tradition, or just being polite¹, confused², 
confusing³, or just plain incompetent (perhaps implied by "strange habit").

Wol gave these "b" people the benefit of the doubt as being "b/h"
people (but why was the American tongue mentioned?).

When you, David Nalesnik, wrote "! hear it a lot in the US", I wondered where, 
specifically. I think the main difference over here is note and rest lengths. 
As you might gather from the combination of my email domain and my timezone 
(and yours), I take an interest in such differences, even if only as 
post-rehearsal pub-chat⁴.

So I was perplexed by your post about my mixing up your response with David 
K's. Perhaps you might explain the referent of "it", if it's not ‘calling a 
b-flat "b"’.

¹ When in Rome …
² Accidentally switching between bf/b and b/h inappropriately.
³ Calling notes by staff position without regard to key signature.
⁴ Assuming we sing again and pubs are still in business.

Cheers,
David.