Re: Suggestion to make sharps and flats persistent

[David Nalesnik]

On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 1:47 PM David Wright <address@hidden> wrote:
>
> On Thu 14 May 2020 at 10:38:59 (+0200), Hans Åberg wrote:
> > > On 14 May 2020, at 03:38, David Wright <address@hidden> wrote:
> > >
> > > I can't say that I've met
> > > English speakers in either the UK or US who use b and h for Bflat and B.
> > > Under what circumstances do you hear it: amateur choirs and orchestral
> > > players, professionals, or in academic duscussions of German music?
> >
> > In general, there is a divide in musical notation in Europe, one is 
> > Germany, and to the north and south and east, and the other, the countries 
> > to the west, France, England, etc.
> >
> > One difference is the note names, H and B in the Germanic tradition [1], 
> > and J.S. Bach used it [2].
>
> Thank you, very useful.
>
> On Thu 14 May 2020 at 07:45:23 (-0500), David Nalesnik wrote:
> > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:39 PM David Wright <address@hidden> wrote:
> > > On Wed 13 May 2020 at 16:35:48 (-0500), David Nalesnik wrote:
> > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 3:34 PM antlists <address@hidden> wrote:
> > > > > On 13/05/2020 16:38, David Kastrup wrote:
> > > > > > Given the number of English-speaking LilyPond users who all share 
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > somewhat strange habit of calling a b-flat "b" if there is a flat 
> > > > > > in the
> > > > > > key signature, it is sort of a safe bet that you are not the first 
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > make this kind of proposal.
> > > > >
> > > > > Are these the same ones who call b an h?
> > > > >
> > > > > Certainly for someone who's mother tongue is English (NOT American) 
> > > > > I'd
> > > > > never call b-flat a b because how would I tell whether it's flat or 
> > > > > not :-)
> > > >
> > > > ! hear it a lot in the US.  (And it's often correlated with losing
> > > > sight of the key signature...)
> > >
> > > Assuming ! stands for "I" and not negation, I can't say that I've met
> > > English speakers in either the UK or US who use b and h for Bflat and B.
> > > Under what circumstances do you hear it: amateur choirs and orchestral
> > > players, professionals, or in academic duscussions of German music?
> >
> > Hi David Wright,
> >
> > Once again the name "David" rears its head!  You are mixing my
> > response with David Kastrup's
>
> I think I would have as much difficulty doing that as my email client would.
>
> AIUI David Kastrup lives in Germany, in b/h land, but without any
> context, I don't know whether this meant that he thought
> English-speaking LilyPond users were steeped in the Germanic
> tradition, or just being polite¹, confused², confusing³, or
> just plain incompetent (perhaps implied by "strange habit").

I know that David Kastrup has commented more fully on this topic on
this list before.
>
> Wol gave these "b" people the benefit of the doubt as being "b/h"
> people (but why was the American tongue mentioned?).

I think the choice of b and b-fIat has something to do with the
confusing nature of this thread.  I read Wol's comment about calling
b-flat "b" as a reflection on speakers of English, nothing to "b" and
"h" in German.   David Kastrup's observation about the "somewhat
strange habit of calling a b-flat 'b' if there is a flat in the
key signature" likewise--nothing to do with German practice.
>
> When you, David Nalesnik, wrote "! hear it a lot in the US",
> I wondered where, specifically. I think the main difference
> over here is note and rest lengths. As you might gather from
> the combination of my email domain and my timezone (and yours),
> I take an interest in such differences, even if only as
> post-rehearsal pub-chat⁴.
>

I can really only speak of the Midwest, and of undergraduate music
students.  It is my observation that the habit of calling F-sharps "F"
goes along with mistakes in sight-reading and in chord spelling.

> So I was perplexed by your post about my mixing up your response with
> David K's. Perhaps you might explain the referent of "it", if it's
> not ‘calling a b-flat "b"’.

Sorry!  I misinterpreted you and only added to the confusion!

> Cheers,
> David.