Re: Piano pedalling in (conductor) scores

[Simon Bailey]

Hi all,

well that kicked off more of a discussion than I expected :D I'm just
going to roll all the replies into one mail.

On Mon, 30 May 2022 at 13:50, Andrew Bernard <andrew.bernard@mailbox.org> wrote:
> Well the Beethoven 5th Piano Concerto has pedalling in it. At least the
> first edition by B&H.

I'd expect it in a concerto, the question was more for piano in an
ensemble context.


On Mon, 30 May 2022 at 13:54, Kieren MacMillan
<kieren@kierenmacmillan.info> wrote:
> > when preparing a conductor's score that also includes a piano (as an 
> > ensemble, not soloist)
> > part, do you also include the pedalling information for the piano?
> IMO, a conductor’s score should contain essentially all the information in 
> the performers’
> parts, although possibly in a slightly different presentation (e.g., 
> different clef, combined
> staves, shorthand, etc.)

Thanks, Kieren. That was my impression too. Gould suggests the same –
i.e. combining staves, adjusting clefs, etc. Best example I've seen of
this is where some parts were copied by hand from a Shostakovich
score. The full score had all 3 trombones on one stave in alto clef,
the copyist followed that religiously. Resulting in a bass trombone
part with a *lot* of ledger lines below an alto clef… :D

> > How useful is that information for a conductor?
>
> Very! For example, let’s say the piano part says “senza ped.” and the 
> conductor’s score has
> no marking — the conductor would likely assume the part would be played with 
> pedal (ad
> lib.), and there might be confusion in rehearsal when the conductor hears no 
> pedal.
>

Yeah, that makes total sense.

On Mon, 30 May 2022 at 14:14, Kieren MacMillan
<kieren@kierenmacmillan.info> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 May 2022 at 14:07, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
> > I disagree.  There is no point in cluttering the conductor's part with
> > stuff like fingerings (only relevant to the player) and bowing
> > directions (section leader material).
>
> Actually, we agree completely: I believe there’s no point in cluttering 
> performers’ parts with
> fingerings (ever) or bowing directions (almost ever).  ;)

I agree with you both here, and also with Kieren's later comments.
Bowing instructions should only be *printed* in instructional
material; for orchestral performance, my experience has also been that
the section leaders will determine the bowing and copyists (or the
musicians) will add it by hand.

On Mon, 30 May 2022 at 14:59, Kieren MacMillan
<kieren@kierenmacmillan.info> wrote:
> > If it’s for a whole section, either it’s the composer or the orchestra 
> > librarian. Who cares of
> > the conductor changes it, that’s their choice.
> >  If it’s for a single player like a keyboardist, I would be inclined to 
> > leave more open to the
> > player - I am a keyboardist with relatively small hands, and many times I 
> > physically can’t do > > the fingerings the composer puts in, and so printed 
> > fingerings do clutter the score when I
> > have to just cross them out.😁 Also, pedaling may change based on the 
> > acoustics of the
> > room…

I agree with the fingerings – I have fairly large hands, so sometimes
fingering doesn't make sense for me either. The pedalling in this case
is very specific for the composition, as has been my experience with
some other "modern" composers (for instance depressing a key without
sound, and then using the sostenuto pedal to get harmonic
interference, etc.).

> Yep. Over-marking is a hallmark of 20th Century [mostly academic, 
> ivory-tower] thinking. The norm nowadays is to reduce markings to the bare 
> minimum, and actually trust the musicians to… you know… make music. ;)
>
> Really, this is just the pendulum swinging back to pre-Romantic practice, 
> which [rightly]
> entrusted a huge amount of performative latitude and trust to the performer, 
> instead of
> dictating every dot and dash and dot-dash [etc.] “from on high”.

As an ex-(failed)-academic (non-music), I like this side of things
too, but as a performer, I far prefer a minimally intrusive part.
Dynamics, potentially some articulations, and that's enough. The rest
will come from the conductor and that's what a pencil is for. ;)

Thanks, all, for the valuable input. Kind regards,
sb

-- 
Do not meddle in the affairs of trombonists, for they are subtle and
quick to anger.