|
| From: | Peter Toye |
| Subject: | Re: Piano pedalling in (conductor) scores |
| Date: | Mon, 30 May 2022 21:23:37 +0100 |
Well, just look at a Mahler score. He was one of the great conductors, and the strings are full of bowing marks. How many of them are followed by conductors these days I don't know.
Fortunately for this discussion he didn't use the piano much, but in the 8th symphony at one point he just marks "Pedal" but no details as to exactly where he wants it.
Stravinsky's Oedipus rex has some very odd pedal markings in the score but I've no idea what the orchestral part says.
Best regards,
Peter
-------------------------
Monday, May 30, 2022, 5:00:33 PM, lilypond-user-request@gnu.org wrote:
Send lilypond-user mailing list submissions to
lilypond-user@gnu.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
lilypond-user-request@gnu.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
lilypond-user-owner@gnu.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of lilypond-user digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Piano pedalling in (conductor) scores (Kieren MacMillan)
2. Re: Piano pedalling in (conductor) scores (Kieren MacMillan)
3. Re: Piano pedalling in (conductor) scores (Peter Toye)
4. Re: Piano pedalling in (conductor) scores (Simon Bailey)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 30 May 2022 09:42:41 -0400
From: Kieren MacMillan <kieren@kierenmacmillan.info>
To: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
Cc: Simon Bailey <binabik@gmail.com>, Lilypond-User Mailing List
<lilypond-user@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: Piano pedalling in (conductor) scores
Message-ID:
<61D9DA87-B56B-4A94-925C-C62D349DCCC2@kierenmacmillan.info">61D9DA87-B56B-4A94-925C-C62D349DCCC2@kierenmacmillan.info>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hi David,
It's a matter of efficiency for sections expected to sightread large
parts of their material to work with performance-ready information even
if it results from arbitrary choices.
Literally every orchestra and ensemble I’ve ever worked with as composer or arranger — which now numbers in the hundreds — has specifically requested that no bowings be in the part(s). They always have their own concermaster fill in *their* preferred bowings, and then the librarian copies parts for the players. (Yes, this means different orchestras have performed different bowings in the same piece!)
As far as I can tell, that’s the standard in the classical music world. <shrug>
Cheers,
Kieren.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 30 May 2022 09:59:18 -0400
From: Kieren MacMillan <kieren@kierenmacmillan.info>
To: Kira Garvie <kgarvie@gmail.com>
Cc: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>, Lilypond-User Mailing List
<lilypond-user@gnu.org>, Simon Bailey <binabik@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Piano pedalling in (conductor) scores
Message-ID:
<C0CC8A53-125E-417E-9860-F07491EAD9F3@kierenmacmillan.info">C0CC8A53-125E-417E-9860-F07491EAD9F3@kierenmacmillan.info>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hi Kira,
If it’s for a whole section, either it’s the composer or the orchestra librarian. Who cares of the conductor changes it, that’s their choice.
If it’s for a single player like a keyboardist, I would be inclined to leave more open to the player - I am a keyboardist with relatively small hands, and many times I physically can’t do the fingerings the composer puts in, and so printed fingerings do clutter the score when I have to just cross them out.😁 Also, pedaling may change based on the acoustics of the room…
Yep. Over-marking is a hallmark of 20th Century [mostly academic, ivory-tower] thinking. The norm nowadays is to reduce markings to the bare minimum, and actually trust the musicians to… you know… make music. ;)
Really, this is just the pendulum swinging back to pre-Romantic practice, which [rightly] entrusted a huge amount of performative latitude and trust to the performer, instead of dictating every dot and dash and dot-dash [etc.] “from on high”.
Cheers,
Kieren.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 30 May 2022 15:08:27 +0100
From: Peter Toye <lilypond@ptoye.com>
To: lilypond-user-request@gnu.org, lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Piano pedalling in (conductor) scores
Message-ID: <84572201.20220530150827@ptoye.com">84572201.20220530150827@ptoye.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Lilypond-user-request,
Best regards,
Peter
mailto:lilypond@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com
-------------------------
Monday, May 30, 2022, 2:40:08 PM, lilypond-user-request@gnu.org wrote:
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 30 May 2022 15:07:48 +0200
From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
To: Kieren MacMillan <kieren@kierenmacmillan.info>
Cc: Simon Bailey <binabik@gmail.com>, Lilypond-User Mailing List
<lilypond-user@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: Piano pedalling in (conductor) scores
Message-ID: <87sforuq1n.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org">87sforuq1n.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Kieren MacMillan <kieren@kierenmacmillan.info> writes:
Hi Simon,
when preparing a conductor's score that also includes a piano (as an
ensemble, not soloist) part, do you also include the pedalling
information for the piano?IMO, a conductor’s score should contain essentially all the
information in the performers’ parts, although possibly in a slightly
different presentation (e.g., different clef, combined staves,
shorthand, etc.)
I disagree. There is no point in cluttering the conductor's part with
stuff like fingerings (only relevant to the player) and bowing
directions (section leader material).
How useful is that information for a conductor?
Very! For example, let’s say the piano part says “senza ped.” and the
conductor’s score has no marking — the conductor would likely assume
the part would be played with pedal (ad lib.), and there might be
confusion in rehearsal when the conductor hears no pedal.
Pedalling is musically relevant to some degree (but often applied by the
player at will) but it really depends on whether we are talking about
information mandated by the composer or editorial suggestions. If the
latter, there seems little point in giving the conductor the information
necessary to enforce the editor's rather than the composer's vision of
execution.
I agree with Kieren here. If the conductor doesn't know what the performer sees, they're going to have to stop the rehearsal to clear it up. Norman del Mar mentions this about the harmonium part of Strauss's 'Ariadne auf Naxos' which apparently contains copious detailed instructions about what stops to use where, all of which is missing from the score.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/attachments/20220530/539e4cee/attachment.htm>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 30 May 2022 16:12:24 +0100
From: Simon Bailey <binabik@gmail.com>
To: Kieren MacMillan <kieren@kierenmacmillan.info>
Cc: Kira Garvie <kgarvie@gmail.com>, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>,
Lilypond-User Mailing List <lilypond-user@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: Piano pedalling in (conductor) scores
Message-ID:
<CACdSEeGySCnO=GcSVZ+ifQkRezzA-fSq62XY2D7-Qz3fm4Qtbg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Hi all,
well that kicked off more of a discussion than I expected :D I'm just
going to roll all the replies into one mail.
On Mon, 30 May 2022 at 13:50, Andrew Bernard <andrew.bernard@mailbox.org> wrote:Well the Beethoven 5th Piano Concerto has pedalling in it. At least the
first edition by B&H.
I'd expect it in a concerto, the question was more for piano in an
ensemble context.
On Mon, 30 May 2022 at 13:54, Kieren MacMillan
<kieren@kierenmacmillan.info> wrote:when preparing a conductor's score that also includes a piano (as an ensemble, not soloist)
part, do you also include the pedalling information for the piano?IMO, a conductor’s score should contain essentially all the information in the performers’
parts, although possibly in a slightly different presentation (e.g., different clef, combined
staves, shorthand, etc.)
Thanks, Kieren. That was my impression too. Gould suggests the same –
i.e. combining staves, adjusting clefs, etc. Best example I've seen of
this is where some parts were copied by hand from a Shostakovich
score. The full score had all 3 trombones on one stave in alto clef,
the copyist followed that religiously. Resulting in a bass trombone
part with a *lot* of ledger lines below an alto clef… :D
How useful is that information for a conductor?Very! For example, let’s say the piano part says “senza ped.” and the conductor’s score has
no marking — the conductor would likely assume the part would be played with pedal (ad
lib.), and there might be confusion in rehearsal when the conductor hears no pedal.
Yeah, that makes total sense.
On Mon, 30 May 2022 at 14:14, Kieren MacMillan
<kieren@kierenmacmillan.info> wrote:On Mon, 30 May 2022 at 14:07, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:I disagree. There is no point in cluttering the conductor's part with
stuff like fingerings (only relevant to the player) and bowing
directions (section leader material).Actually, we agree completely: I believe there’s no point in cluttering performers’ parts with
fingerings (ever) or bowing directions (almost ever). ;)
I agree with you both here, and also with Kieren's later comments.
Bowing instructions should only be *printed* in instructional
material; for orchestral performance, my experience has also been that
the section leaders will determine the bowing and copyists (or the
musicians) will add it by hand.
On Mon, 30 May 2022 at 14:59, Kieren MacMillan
<kieren@kierenmacmillan.info> wrote:If it’s for a whole section, either it’s the composer or the orchestra librarian. Who cares of
the conductor changes it, that’s their choice.
If it’s for a single player like a keyboardist, I would be inclined to leave more open to the
player - I am a keyboardist with relatively small hands, and many times I physically can’t do > > the fingerings the composer puts in, and so printed fingerings do clutter the score when I
have to just cross them out.😁 Also, pedaling may change based on the acoustics of the
room…
I agree with the fingerings – I have fairly large hands, so sometimes
fingering doesn't make sense for me either. The pedalling in this case
is very specific for the composition, as has been my experience with
some other "modern" composers (for instance depressing a key without
sound, and then using the sostenuto pedal to get harmonic
interference, etc.).
Yep. Over-marking is a hallmark of 20th Century [mostly academic, ivory-tower] thinking. The norm nowadays is to reduce markings to the bare minimum, and actually trust the musicians to… you know… make music. ;)Really, this is just the pendulum swinging back to pre-Romantic practice, which [rightly]
entrusted a huge amount of performative latitude and trust to the performer, instead of
dictating every dot and dash and dot-dash [etc.] “from on high”.
As an ex-(failed)-academic (non-music), I like this side of things
too, but as a performer, I far prefer a minimally intrusive part.
Dynamics, potentially some articulations, and that's enough. The rest
will come from the conductor and that's what a pencil is for. ;)
Thanks, all, for the valuable input. Kind regards,
sb
| [Prev in Thread] | Current Thread | [Next in Thread] |