[Texmacs-dev] Free Software needs Free Documentation

[martin-kemp]

> From: TeXmacs <texmacs@lix.polytechnique.fr>
> To: texmacs-dev@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: [Texmacs-dev] Free Software needs Free Documentation
> Date: 19/06/2021 23:19:47 Europe/Paris

> Hi Martin,

> On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 10:07:04PM +0200, martin-kemp@brusseler.com wrote:
> > >On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 08:01:35PM +0200, martin-kemp@brusseler.com wrote:
> > >> On the contrary, it seems more to me that many can't stand the idea of being 
> > >> challenged.
> 
> > >I wonder whether you gave Donald Knuth and Leslie Lamport similar challenges,
> > >since they set the example with their books on TeX and LaTeX
> > >(I searched on the web, but I could not find trace of such challenges).
> > 
> >I don't think that they wrote a lot of free documentation on their software
> > >by the way, contrary to what I did for TeXmacs.
> > 
> > >And of course, since you seem to like challenges,
> >you are free to contribute to the documentation!
> > 
> > May I remind you that you wrote "Liberons la publication scientifique" in 2001.
> > 
> > What happened since then ?

> The book is meant as a showcase for the kind of _physical_ book
> that we can produce with TeXmacs.  That is why I published it
> as a physical object and not as a Pdf.

> The pamphlet that I wrote in 2001 concerns ordinary scientific publications,
> like something that you submit to a journal and results that are needed
> for further research.  Since my book is more something between a manual and
> a more literary publication, the arguments from my pamphlet do not apply to it,
> or only marginally so.  E.g., you clearly won't need any "results" from my book
> for proving a theorem.

> (P.S.: I just noted that my former university (Orsay) destroyed my pamphlet;
> I will try to dig up the text.)

> > > > It is unfortunate to see a Directeur de Recherche of CNRS and the
> > > > main developer of the Gnu TeXmacs Software System, writes a guide
> > > > on mastering the secrets and latest versions of Gnu TeXmacs.
> > > > Even worse, the book is written in english, yet the terms of sale
> > > > are given in french.
> 
> > >I am just complying to French law, since I happen to live in France.
> > 
> > But should the readers who read it, be entitled to the same in the language
> > the book was written in? 

> No, this is optional in French law, but not recommended,
> since any potential error in the translation would be on me.

> For similar reasons, the GNU GPL is not translated in other languages,
> even though programs covered by this license are used in countries
> where English is not the native tongue.

This is problematic, because the working environment has changed so much

in the last four decades.  Today, we live in a market economy of global reach.

In this regard, I shall comment on the service of legal documents in France.

The service persuant to The  Hague Service Convention of 1965, requires forms

in English or French, with many forms available in bilingual formats.

I know that French Authorities are reluctant to accept forms completed in English only,

but a French Translation is acceptable, even if the translation is not certified.

If liability of error in translation is on you, it would be a good enough reason

to dump the publisher.  If I want to look into buying your book, I need to know

the terms, in the language it was written.  I understand French myself and I know

it is not a good deal for me.  So I will not read the book.  How much do you get from

each book?

> > > > > And with the hefty price of 50 Euros, who is he supposed to be

> > > > > kidding.  Because many people are not laughing or pleased - to
> > > > > say the least.
> > 
> > > > Please do not speak for everyone. 50€ is not very much for this
> > > > amount of work, and Joris definitively deserve to have some
> > > > financial support. And again, this book is not at all needed to
> > > > 
> > > > use most of TeXmacs.
> > 
> > >> He should include that when applying for funds.
> > 
> > >What are you trying to say? Please remain polite and
> > >make a precise point if you want to challenge me.
> > 
> > I will be polite.  I advocate a new publishing model (today we do need
> > publishers - Plos One charges $1350 for Open Access and for
> > Nature Communications it is $5700).  Scientists should publish
> > free documentation of works, and could include a one-time
> > contribution in their research proposal to cover editing and
> > publishing costs.

> My book has never been part of a research proposal,
> so I never received particular funding from CNRS or
> any other research institution for it.
> It was written during my spare time.

I do not find any benefit in doing important work in spare time because

many institutional administrators are so uneducated about what we do.

The drive to change this has to be advocated by ourselves.

> (It is true though that, by default, CNRS has legal
> rights even on work that I do during my spare time;
> but I clarified this by getting official authorization
> from CNRS to publish my book in the way I did.)

I also have had serious fallouts with state institutions whose administrators

have a grasping attitude towards software and knowledge, viewing them only

as ways of income generated through the toil of others, rather than as public

service.

> As to scientific publications, I am against your costly suggestion
> for open access publications.  There is a much simpler solution
> that I apply for all my research papers and books:
> make them freely accessible on your webpage and
> on preprint servers.  I also did so for my manuals on
> TeXmacs and Mathemagix by the way.

There was an error on my part.  We do not need  publisher today.

Their prices are reason enough to eradicate them. 

> Another major problem with the current publishing system is
> that I am not free to send papers in my preferred format.
> Publishers should at least accept Pdfs.  Even ArXiv does not!

Quite right.  It is a problem.  I encourage you to find a different way

to get your ideas into the world that is easier than it's ever been. The

problem is not so much about payment for a book you wrote.  I can

understand that, but book on software have the tendency to change

 the dynamics of the discussion quite frequently than books of literature.

 

And if you had the copyright you would be able to release it for public

use in a few years time.  Books tend to became insignificant in profitability

after around two or three years.  Have talked with many people, including

academics

I knew a fellow CNRS colleague - Albert Tarantola - and others (e.g. at Stanford

University) who encountered great difficulties when users asked for a copy of their

books but could not help them after the publisher took them out of print. 

Even more shocking was the request that they buy back rights to their own

book for $10,300 !

> Best regards, --Joris

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