From: Massimiliano Gubinelli <
m.gubinelli@gmail.com>
To: TeXmacs developer mailing list <
texmacs-dev@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: [Texmacs-dev] Free Software needs Free Documentation
Date: 21/06/2021 11:30:28 Europe/Paris
Dear Martin,
Massimiliano,
I have not read the book and cannot confidently make the
assessment you describe.
>I
never referred to the content of the book. I pointed out that there is
plenty of free documentation >for TeXmacs available. I think you can read
it and very by yourself that it is quite comprehensive >and informative.
Indeed until the book was written (i.e. last year) it was the only
information >available.
I do not know what the main author of
TeXmacs has written in that book. I just outlined what is
considered standard at university level.
>I'm not sure what university has to do with that. Joris has written his book in his private capacity >as he already stressed.
I compared the value of mathematic background to a book about typesetting a docement.
The value is not the same.
The book is about how
to use a particular implementation of software.
>The
book is on how to write good documents with TeXmacs, does not discuss
only the specific >use of the software (which is already covered by the
free user manual and the various tutorials) but >how to use it
effectively and what are the best practice of document writing. Again
Joris do not >have to be slave of his decision to make TeXmacs available
as a GNU project in other parts of his >daily life.
Works that express someone's opinion - memoirs, editorials, and
so on - serve a fundamentally different purpose than works for
practical use like software and documentation. If it is about writing, I would take a different view. Slavery has nothing to do with this, and I am not going
behind people's back to immobilise them.
>TeXmacs has already a good free manual. I bought the book also to give my appreciation to Joris >for all his hard work.
Became aware of TeXmacs around 2013 after a talk by François
Poulain. Have reviewed TeXmacs a number of times since then -
but I could not really recommend it. But do hope to change my
mind about it, because I can see some benefits in using it if
specific criticisms are tackled.
>I would be interested in reading your reviews. Are they available somewhere? Where can we learn about these criticisms?
The criticisms were technical mostly, some files were getting deleted after calling
save.
The distribution of a book
relates to its value for readers. An author must accept that a
limited circulation book will not earn much money.
>This
is not your choice to make. Many book have very small circulation but
they are produced for >the love of quality and beauty. Is really the
price your only issue? I showed you that popular >LaTeX books are
similarly priced. You didn't commented about it.
Don't own such books. Only pointed out that a more reasonable priced book could help circulation, rather than depending on the community close to Joris who want to support him.
The biggest problem however is the restrictive legal conditions of using book, and that
the information is only provided in french when the people reading it are english speakers
Few authors do. Inflating its price as we have seen with Elsevier
and others is a disease that requires eradication. Thusly I
refuse to involve myself in peer-review.for the benefit of
publishers who mistreat readers with vastly inflated prices,
while at the same time campaigning for exclusive legal rights of
exploitation to be granted to them by governments.
>Martin,
the economy of scientific publications is not a matter involving this
mailing list, or about >your specific complain about the lack of free
documentation for TeXmacs (which I showed you >that it is unmotivated).
I thank you for your discussion about the book.
Be reminded that my discussion with Joris (and which I am glad he
responded directly) went far beyond the development contribution,
elaborating on topics that are at director and institutional
levels. And we have found much agreement and recognition of the
challenges at hand.
>If
you write on texmacs-dev then other developers/users of TeXmacs are
entitled to answer. If you >want to address Joris personally use his own
mail address. I feel compelled as a supporter of this >project to say my
word to support Joris' hard work and commitment to free software.
It is a good discussion to have in the community. Disputes simply compelled by the bunch
people gathered around them is not intelligence. It forms part of my critique. But introspections
oy value are welcomed.
The challenge has no similarities to what has been seen recently
in the software community (vis Richard Stallman, Eric Raymond,
Linus Torvalds). Do not interpret it that way. Neither should I be
associated with Open Source Projects, as it is something I don't
agree with.
>I'm
sorry but I do not know what you are talking about, I'm quite ignorant
in these matters and do >not understand your point here.
Please see
As Directeur de Recherche, Joris is quite capable of responding
forcefully at unjust criticism as befitting to his position.
>I
do not see how the daily work of Joris matters here. It should not. He
could be a baker or a >painter. If you think our work should affect our
activity/position in this discussion, I would invite >you to disclose
analogous informations about you. I'm a university professor myself, for
what it >matters. But I would have liked to be a restaurant waiter, too.
I treat others according to how they present themselves. He does not present himself as a baker.
What I can do is encourage and inspire the world to change some
attitudes, in ways that will make the institutions we work with,
the best they can be.
Together with others, we can work so that true human capabilities
can find _expression_.
>Joris'
contribution to the world of free software is clear and well documented
by more than 70% of >~300.000 lines of code and free documentation and
the leadership of this project. In comparison >each of us other
developers of TeXmacs have made minor contributions.
I would encourage you to help him and support him with contributions.
>It would be helpful
to know, to understand better your point, what are you proposing
concretely. >In particular also what are your contributions to the goal
of
>"we can work so that true human capabilities can find _expression_."
Mostly legal. I was involved in the bunch of heavyweights discussing with governments
and members of the european parliament the harms of passing the EU Directive on Copyright
in the Digital Single Market.
>Best regards,
>Massimiliano Gubinelli
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