Re: [Texmacs-dev] Free Software needs Free Documentation

On 20. Jun 2021, at 22:00, martin-kemp@brusseler.com wrote:

Massimiliano,

I have not read the book and cannot confidently make the
assessment you describe.

I never referred to the content of the book. I pointed out that there is plenty of free documentation for TeXmacs available. I think you can read it and very by yourself that it is quite comprehensive and informative. Indeed until the book was written (i.e. last year) it was the only information available.

I do not know what the main author of
TeXmacs has written in that book. I just outlined what is
considered standard at university level.

I'm not sure what university has to do with that. Joris has written his book in his private capacity as he already stressed.

The book is about how
to use a particular implementation of software.

The book is on how to write good documents with TeXmacs, does not discuss only the specific use of the software (which is already covered by the free user manual and the various tutorials) but how to use it effectively and what are the best practice of document writing. Again Joris do not have to be slave of his decision to make TeXmacs available as a GNU project in other parts of his daily life.

TeXmacs has already a good free manual. I bought the book also to give my appreciation to Joris for all his hard work.

Became aware of TeXmacs around 2013 after a talk by François
Poulain. Have reviewed TeXmacs a number of times since then -
but I could not really recommend it. But do hope to change my
mind about it, because I can see some benefits in using it if
specific criticisms are tackled.

I would be interested in reading your reviews. Are they available somewhere? Where can we learn about these criticisms?

The distribution of a book
relates to its value for readers. An author must accept that a
limited circulation book will not earn much money.

This is not your choice to make. Many book have very small circulation but they are produced for the love of quality and beauty. Is really the price your only issue? I showed you that popular LaTeX books are similarly priced. You didn't commented about it.

Few authors do. Inflating its price as we have seen with Elsevier
and others is a disease that requires eradication. Thusly I
refuse to involve myself in peer-review.for the benefit of
publishers who mistreat readers with vastly inflated prices,
while at the same time campaigning for exclusive legal rights of
exploitation to be granted to them by governments.

Martin, the economy of scientific publications is not a matter involving this mailing list, or about your specific complain about the lack of free documentation for TeXmacs (which I showed you that it is unmotivated).

Be reminded that my discussion with Joris (and which I am glad he
responded directly) went far beyond the development contribution,
elaborating on topics that are at director and institutional
levels. And we have found much agreement and recognition of the
challenges at hand.

If you write on texmacs-dev then other developers/users of TeXmacs are entitled to answer. If you want to address Joris personally use his own mail address. I feel compelled as a supporter of this project to say my word to support Joris' hard work and commitment to free software.

The challenge has no similarities to what has been seen recently
in the software community (vis Richard Stallman, Eric Raymond,
Linus Torvalds). Do not interpret it that way. Neither should I be
associated with Open Source Projects, as it is something I don't
agree with.

I'm sorry but I do not know what you are talking about, I'm quite ignorant in these matters and do not understand your point here.

As Directeur de Recherche, Joris is quite capable of responding
forcefully at unjust criticism as befitting to his position.

I do not see how the daily work of Joris matters here. It should not. He could be a baker or a painter. If you think our work should affect our activity/position in this discussion, I would invite you to disclose analogous informations about you. I'm a university professor myself, for what it matters. But I would have liked to be a restaurant waiter, too.

What I can do is encourage and inspire the world to change some
attitudes, in ways that will make the institutions we work with,
the best they can be.

Together with others, we can work so that true human capabilities
can find _expression_.

"we can work so that true human capabilities can find _expression_."

Best regards,

Massimiliano Gubinelli

From: Massimiliano Gubinelli <m.gubinelli@gmail.com>
To: martin-kemp@brusseler.com
Subject: Re: [Texmacs-dev] Free Software needs Free Documentation
Date: 20/06/2021 19:35:37 Europe/Paris
Cc: TeXmacs developer mailing list <texmacs-dev@gnu.org>

Dear Martin,

let me add some more perspective and some numbers, since you seems to be new to this project and maybe unfamiliar with it.

You can check here some metrics:

https://www.openhub.net/p/texmacs

TeXmacs has ~250.000 lines of C++ and ~200.000 lines of Scheme code. The great majority of this code has been written by Joris since 17 years:

https://www.openhub.net/p/texmacs/contributors/summary

I've joined the project in 2006 and I witnessed the constant work which Joris delivers in bugfixes, new substantial features, quality control over contributions by others, etc.. It is fair to say that a large community of users profits everyday from this work.

As for documentation we have a 260 pages user manual, a 50 pages developer guide and a 150 pages manual for the scheme extensions. All free and available in the program. There is a forum and a blog

https://texmacs.github.io/notes/docs/main.html

with some tutorials.

Joris himself created also few video tutorials (the only one available so far), available on youtube and on our own web site.

So I find quite puzzling your critique, and frankly quite unjust. Maybe were you not aware of their existence?

I feel that Joris has the right to write and distribute whatever he likes, especially given the fact that his contribution to the project is already substantial without the book. I personally bought several copies to give as gift to friends.

I do not share the opinion of Alvaro that the book should be made free. The program is free software and everybody can write documentation, tutorials for it. Is not the obligation of Joris to do more than he already does and I'm quite fine with him publishing a great book for 50 euros, as I would be if he would publish a literary work with a standard publisher. You cannot compare a book with a small distribution like one on TeXmacs with a widespread book on Algebra used by many more students. As with other publications students can ask libraries to but the book, libraries which already have books on TeX and LaTeX which are similarly prices: Lamport's LaTeX book is $44 euros on amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/LaTeX-Document-Preparation-System-2nd/dp/0201529831

But, as everybody using TeXmacs regularly knows, you do not have to have the book to use it. Many of us learned to use TeXmacs before and without Joris' book. You can go in the forum and ask information, you can read the sources and see how to do something, you can read the blog for specific tutorials written by other collaborators like Giovanni.

TeXmacs is a great project I'm quite proud to contribute to. I never felt any problem with Joris' book.

Open source projects needs support and love from users which understand and value the dedication and hard work needed to make them successful.

Best regards,
Massimiliano Gubinelli

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From:	Massimiliano Gubinelli
Subject:	Re: [Texmacs-dev] Free Software needs Free Documentation
Date:	Mon, 21 Jun 2021 11:30:28 +0200