Re: Kickstarter was not successful... but it did help things...

[Doc O'Leary]

In article <mailman.10199.1387840022.10748.discuss-gnustep@gnu.org>,
 Richard Frith-Macdonald <richardfrithmacdonald@gmail.com> wrote:

> Brutal => unscientific

Nice try, but so very wrong.  Science is about provisional truth.  
Sometimes true things are not just unattractive, but downright brutal.  
You will die on this isolated rock after an infinitesimally brief life, 
never having known even 1% of reality or having even visited a 
neighboring star or planet or moon.  Brutal.

But, hey, Merry Christmas!

> Honest?  It's OK to be honestly mistaken, but when you ignore evidence, 
> that's self deception.

Indeed.  So why are so few people here ignoring the evidence?  Why to 
they deceive themselves into thinking that people who point out problems 
*are* the problem?

> > You do know that *is* the way of science, right?
> 
> No, agreeing with you for no reason is called 'faith' ... pretty much the 
> opposite of science.

I'm not asking them to agree with me.  In fact, I'm partly doing the 
opposite.  Do you think I don't *know* that people don't like it when 
you talk to them with brutal honesty?  I could *easily* use a nicer 
voice to express my opinions here.  But if the only reason you're going 
to agree with me is because I'm nice, *that* puts you on the road to 
faith and the cult of personality.  Look at the evidence yourself, and 
agree or disagree with me as you will.

>You say 'There is evidence' ... but as I said, you have failed top 
present 
> it.

What do you expect me to show you that isn't available freely?  Do you 
want the link to the failed Kickstarter proposal?

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/203272607/gnustep-project

Do you doubt that the popularity of ObjC has skyrocketed in the last 5 
years?

http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

Do you want to see how little gnustep.org has been changing?

https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.gnustep.org

> It would therefore be unreasonable for people to accept that you are being 
> scientific about things.

The burden is on you to explain why you're ignoring the obvious evidence 
and spinning fantasies instead.

> Well, it may be a conclusion for you, but you state it as an assertion, and 
> if you arrived at the conclusion it was despite all the evidence to the 
> contrary (stated aims on the web pages, majority of comments on mailing 
> lists, the amount of work put in to OSX compatibility etc).

Part of my point is that, yes, such things are *said* on the web site 
and elsewhere.  But if you actually sit down and think about it, if you 
apply the use case "I'm a Mac developer looking to try porting to 
GNUstep", the *full* body of evidence makes it obvious that GNUstep is 
not very welcoming.

> You ignore all the evidence (including the evidence that 
> people are willing to look at ways to try to keep on improving things), and 
> cite the admission that the world is not perfect as proof of your case.  
> That's cherry picking the evidence, and unscientific behavior in the highest 
> degree.

It remains you who is willfully ignoring evidence.  Stop working 
backwards from your conclusion that GNUstep is juuuuuust fine.  Either 
that, or change the "soft" evidence that pretends you're trying to do 
more than you are.

> I have lost track of the number of times people have asked you to help in 
> this thread.  If there's no desire to improve things, why would anyone have 
> bothered?

Instead of counting them, you should have read them.  What is almost 
universally asked for is code, code, code.  My suggestions have almost 
nothing to do with that, and are thus deemed of little value.  Until 
that thinking changes, I'll bow out of tilting at windmills.

> > Again, I have.  I did not receive a positive response.  The demonstrated 
> > best strategy for an iterated prisoner's dilemma is tit-for-tat.  The 
> > cycle will be broken when someone inside GNUstep wises up and moves in a 
> > positive direction.
> 
> On the contrary, most of the comment you've had has been pretty friendly and 
> positive, especially considering the way your emails come across.

Again with the ignoring of obvious examples to the contrary.  Do you 
actually bother to read things?

> Lots of people are doing useful stuff ... why not join in and contribute 
> something?

Answered many times.  Please read before responding.

> I suggested putting together a VM to make it easier for people to get started 
> ... is that not something you could do?

It indeed is.  But, again, what is the point in doing so if the 
leadership doesn't actually place the *underlying reason* for providing 
such a thing as a priority issue for the GNUstep project?  Perhaps my 
time is better spent on other things.  I'm trying to profile before I 
optimize, which apparently makes me a jerkwad in this upside down world.

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