Re: [Monotone-devel] Command design and naming?

[Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker]

In message <address@hidden> on Sat, 24 Feb 2007 00:51:41 +1100, William Uther 
<address@hidden> said:

willu> I've re-ordered your email to respond in order of
willu> importance. :)

OK ;)

willu> I'm dealing with a group of people here who have spent 10
willu> minutes less than you understanding monotone.

If they are seriously looking at it, shouldn't they read up?

willu> ... if it can do so _without losing much elegance_, I think
willu> that is worthwhile.

I hope you noticed that I gave a number of options as well.

willu> The current commands are not just a problem for people
willu> switching.  I think they make me type about three times as much
willu> as I need to in many situations.  A small amount of syntactic
willu> sugar in the right places is a good thing.

A small amount of syntactic sugar can have big consequences.  It has
to be maintained over time, and it could lead to as much confusion as
it can help (see tla and the pletora of subcommands that do almost,
but not quite the same thing).  Sort of "Oh shit, I shouldn't have
done it *that* way this time!" kind of confusion.

willu> It would be very possible to do what I'm suggesting with
willu> scripts.  But I think that other people are going to have the
willu> same issue(s).  I think many users are going to give up on
willu> monotone before they write themselves scripts, which is sad,
willu> but I think accurate.  I would like to avoid that.

I didn't mean to say that everyone should write their own script.  You
or I could actually write the script syntactic-sugar.sh (or whatever,
it could be named 'mtn-cvs' as well) and have it distributed with the
rest of monotone.  This is, of course, if we decide to go for scripts,
which was just a suggestion so far.

willu> This is a side issue, but no I'm not amazingly bent on specific
willu> branches.  I had simply noted that if you commit in one branch,
willu> you don't expect your work in another branch to be synced.

... unless you're working in several branches at once, for example
when a change in one requires a change that belongs in another that is
then propagated to the first.  I've worked a lot that way, even before
I started using monotone.

willu> > I'm skipping everything about option ii, since you said
willu> > yourself that it was overkill, and I agree.

Oops, I miswrote that.  I meant option iii.

willu> My option ii was very like what you suggested, but I used the
willu> term 'remote' instead of 'super'.  It is what I have just
willu> finished implementing.  Test cases tomorrow I think...

Oh goody good!  Code is a good way to make a case.  Actually, nothing
stops you from creating a branch for yourself where you develop that.

willu> From the tone of your email I suspect that my email volume is
willu> annoying you.

No.  But you may want to know that I can come out pretty powerfully
and arrogantly when I've an opinion I stand by.  You're not the first
to have mistaken that for being annoyed ;).

Well, ok, perhaps not entirely true.  I do get annoyed when people
wanna try something new without trying to read up and understand the
new thing, and are instead expecting it to behave like their old
thing.  And no, I don't see you as such a person, but it seems like
you have some sort of pressure from people who seem to do just that,
not read up.  So my appologies, I understand that you may be caught
between a rock and a hard place.  I'll see if I can get a bit less
aggressive ;).

willu> Having said that, Monotone is a very nice VCS, but it hits
willu> people transferring from other systems with a fair few gotchas.

Oh yeah, there are gotchas, I agree with that.  Those I see are the
amount of time the initial pull of a large project can take and that
the security system is a bit weak.  As far as I know, both are being
worked on (the latter in the form of policy branches, something I
really look forward to trying out (*wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*)).

I understand that one of your gotchas is verbosity (interestingly
enough, since you see yourself as quite verbose ;)) and lack of
support for a centralised view.  Anything else?

willu> I think many people here have been using it for so long they've
willu> forgotten the new user experience.

I do remember how I felt.  Liberation from the hassles of CVS, which I
had lived with for years!  Being able to commit when I'm on the plane
(which I am, regularly), and then syncing all the stuff as soon as I
connect again (*wham* hit the server with a meg or two)!

The only thing I recall being a mystery was the security system.  That
one took a while to get used to and accept.  If there was anything
where my years of living with a centralised system showed, that would
be it.

willu> If you think I'm too verbose, feel free to ignore me :).

No.  I don't think you're too verbose, and as a matter of fact, I
could take that as a challenge (to everyone else's annoyance, I'm sure
;)).

willu> There aren't that many patches I want to write, so volume
willu> should go down soon.  :)

Bah, I'm sure you have more to give.  Welcome to this community!

willu> Be well,

Blessed be,
Richard

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-- 
Richard Levitte                         address@hidden
                                        http://richard.levitte.org/

"When I became a man I put away childish things, including
 the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
                                                -- C.S. Lewis