On Sunday, December 22, 2013, Doc O'Leary wrote:
In article <mailman.9907.1387636836.10748.discuss-gnustep@gnu.org>,
Gregory Casamento <greg.casamento@gmail.com> wrote:
> Your understanding of how things work on an open source/free software
> project is fundamentally flawed.
No, my understanding of both what *happens* and what *works* are fine.
That's my point. Most open source efforts are content to be a big ol'
circle jerk with a bunch of dork coders patting each other on the backs
on how clever they are. Meanwhile, Apple pushes the same technology
with a different idea, and ends up not only helping people lead better
lives, but making billions in the process.
> If you think this approach will work, you should try it. From experience
> you wont have as much success as you think.
What is your measure of success? Is the topical Kickstarter failure
considered a measure of that success? Is the continued irrelevance of
GNUstep the measure? If so then, no, I assure you that my methods are
not geared for that type of success. But if you ever want something
else, something more reality-based, you'd do well to consider making
some of the changes I've been suggesting.
I am considering them as I said before.
> Here's an even more radical one. We've already done much of this analysis.
> Just because you weren't involved doesn't mean it didn't happen.
There is no evidence of that. You don't point to the discussion. You
can't even point to the *results* of the discussion. What you *have*
done is dismissively "LOL" a poll regarding UIKit. That is nothing
radical. That is not good leadership.
It was not dismissive. Believe it or not I actually meant those polls. Do you know how difficult it would be to come up with fairly balanced questions? You espouse so much and yet you prove NOTHING. You do nothing but criticize.
Do a search in the mailing list archives. The discussion is there. The consensus was that we should. There was also discussion regarding how uikit should be implemented whether it should be implemented on top of appkit (as with chameleon) or on its own.
Perhaps you should learn to lead an open source project yourself before you judge me or others on this project.
> The reason for Apple to implement UIKit is very simple. AppKit processes
> mouse and keyboard driven events. With a mouse you're forced to move the
> pointer from one location to another. On a phone or tablet you know
> precisely where the user is pointing via touch events. Another
> consideration was the difference in form factor as well as the fact that
> the framework needed to be lightweight and that is something AppKit isn't.
Uh, it's an API! I really don't get the inability of people to think
beyond the implementation.
You asked for reasons why Apple did what they did. I gave you the reasons that I'm aware of. Do you want citations or something? This is not a science journal.
The question I'm asking is about the
significant differences, if any, that require you to do more than change
and NS- prefix to UI-. I mean, my fundamental use of UIView isn't any
different than what my use of NSView has been for decades. That events
might be touch-based is really of *very* little significance.
That was not evident from the phrasing of your original question, sir.
So, like I said, it may very well be that the smart position for GNUstep
to take is to simply say, "Even though Apple provides separate APIs for
Mac and iOS apps, GNUstep allows all apps to be written with just one
API." Advantage GNUstep! Now, sure, you might want to put in some
bridge code to make portability even easier, but that's not necessarily
necessary. Again, it all comes down to stating your position and
properly supporting it.
> > Talk on a mailing list is cheap.
> >
> > And yet so much more valuable than aimless code.
>
> You really think you're being productive. I invite you to use the
> technical skills you touted earlier to contribute something.
Brownian Motion is not my thing. Until you see value in these
non-technical discussions, there is no point in contributing much else
to GNUstep.
I do see value in these discussions as I've told you before.
Until you do something productive. You're only hot air to me. You have some salient points, but if you're unwilling to act on them it makes you just as useless as you claim we are.
As David so aptly put it. Talk is cheap. Walk the walk. Prove youself. This is a meritocracy and so far you have none.
> Good grief... open source projects are inherently self-serving.
Yes, but if they are *ultimately* self-serving, then there is no point
in contributing to them. I code so that other people don't have to. So
that they can stand on my shoulders and achieve greater things. That's
the kind of things I look to collaborate on, not just a bunch of coders
stroking their own egos.
No one is doing that here aside from you. All I've seen in this thread is you touting how much better your way of thinking is than anything we've done. To that I say "prove it."
> I am a trained computer scientist. I have a degree, with honors, from
> University of Maryland at College Park and I studied at Johns Hopkins
> University. As is David who has a PhD from Swansea University. Others in
> the group also hold degrees.
If you want to prove you have a science education, prove it by engaging
in a scientific approach. You remain dismissive of theoretical
discussions, demanding only work towards your currently misguided
efforts. No, I will not help you build a perpetual motion machine.
Change your thinking.
I have taken many of your points to heart!
Where have I dismissed a single rationally made argument you've made? Point that out to me please! I have disagreed with you where I felt I should and agreed with you on many points.
If you would like to prove you have a scientific background then please do something more productive than to engage myself and my team in this largely useless debate which is amounting to a whole lot of noise from you.
Stop being a pompous ass and actually do something for a change, but then you might have to actually DO something wouldn't you?
At least most of us are trying to actually do something for this project. Have you even made one commit? Have you invested one hour coding or gone to conferences or speaking engagements or taking on shows in order to get the word out? Have you spent even one iota of effort? What gives you the right to sit there in judgement of us when you have not lifted even one finger to help aside from writing these emails.
When I joined the discussion I told you directly that we are considering your ideas and you can't seem to absorb that. You have to find a way to keep arguing.
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