Re: Questions (was: Re: A Critique: Getting Started with GNUstep on Windows)

[Doc O'Leary]

For your reference, records indicate that 
=?UTF-8?B?SXZhbiBWdcSNaWNh?= <ivan@vucica.net> wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 28, 2016, 18:50 Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > If there isn’t, the GNUstep project
> > should explicitly state that it will not welcome code or coders that
> > work with Apple platforms.
> >
> 
> I was unaware we are refusing them.

Then you need to more thoughtfully read the comments here and the
current message of the GNUstep site.  The NIH factor is so obvious
it is silly to dispute it.

> > Seek professional medical help.
> 
> This kind of language should be unacceptable in a polite society no matter
> the context.
> 
> You have not made a point, but just demonstrated you are unwilling to
> encourage polite discussions.

Interesting that you clipped out what I responded to: Liam calling
Svetlana insane.  I guess you deemed that to be polite discussion?
Sounds like just more of the brogrammer nonsense hostility that makes
GNUstep unattractive to professional developers.

And if it wasn’t hostility, but a serious concern about someones mental
health?  Seems like the civilized thing to do would be to help them get
treatment.  Please stop stigmatizing people who may be suffering.

But let’s get back on topic here . . .

> You are shooting your own argument in the foot.
> 
> OS X also exists.

Not as open source.  Darwin exists, but the underlying OS is not very
obviously useful to the GNUstep project.  Only if Apple open sourced
Cocoa frameworks tomorrow would my argument be invalid.

> Your inconsistencies and aggressiveness demonstrate your participation in
> this mailing list exists solely to facilitate conflict. Your participation
> is not helping.

I’m not here to stir up conflict, but I’m quite able to hold my own if
people here *continue* to fight against the simple suggestions I’ve been
making regarding GNUstep over the past decades.  If you insist on *still*
doing things wrong then, no, that not something I’m going to “help” with.

> Now for an alternate approach to responding to what you propose: exactly.
> We want that. In many cases, however, grabbing a single GPL app and "making
> it work" is a multimonth effort.

Then commit to rolling up your sleeves and making that happen.  I would.
It’s the kind of meaty problem that would be the *only* reason some of us
would bother to start contributing to GNUstep.  Stop fighting to say “no”
to the useful work.

> You mention iOS. The Hollywood-style handwaving you've done there is scary.

The world is a scary place.  Let’s be adults about that.  Let’s be scary.
:-)

> Making iOS apps run absolutely requires well-greased Core Animation.

I disagree.  There is a vast gulf between getting and app to “run” and
doing what is “absolutely required” to offer a complete parity experience
to what iOS (or the Mac) offers.  The professional approach is to set
priorities for what features are important and the ease at which they can
be implemented.  If CA is a non-starter based on the current maturity of
GNUstep, *say so*, and focus on apps that either don’t use it, or only
use it for “flash” rather than necessary functionality.

> You are conflating lack of interest and goals with lack of manpower.

On the contrary.  I’m attempting to balance the goals with the available
people.  As I have already stated, interest in ObjC has exploded over
the last decade.  That *should* have resulted in a noticeable shift in
GNUstep to more outreach.  Every time I propose that approach, I get
painted as the bad guy.  If anyone needs to change their approach, it is
you.

> To attract people, I would *like* to write an IDE that can work with
> .pbxproj files in a *correct* fashion. This means implementing way more
> than a reader for .pbxproj format and a simple build system; the
> proprietary counterpart IDE has a pretty neat plugin infrastructure.

While useful, as a developer I don’t see a big win in that.  Until the
core functionality is at a level where it can run the app *itself*,
fussing to get the build system to work with Apple’s format is a
premature optimization.

-- 
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly