Re: Setting up classical guitar fingerings

[Luca Fascione]

I suspect we might be saying the same thing, Valentin?

I was saying infix can be a bit awkward if you want 'pianist' chord
fingering (just a stack of numbers above or below), and that your original
<c d g>-1-2-3 reads quite nicely (as in: it's easy to see in your head what
you will get in the engraving just by looking at the source). So a keyboard
person wouldn't want to use infix, I don't think

Whereas a guitar person might find it more attractive to use <c-1 d-2 g-3>
because it's easier to keep it straight in your head what fingers you use
on what note that way

L

On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 5:42 PM Valentin Petzel <valentin@petzel.at> wrote:

> No, not nescessarily. If we want all Fingerings on top or below there is
> no real benefit of doing the chord thing. In fact doing that leads to the
> exact same issue of the fingering for d being next to the other ones.
>
> Cheers,
> Valentin
>
> 21.02.2022 12:38:40 Luca Fascione <l.fascione@gmail.com>:
>
> But wouldn't you finger that as <c-1 d-2 g-3>? (Didn't check the number,
> I'm just meaning going infix vs postfix)
>
> I can see that this idea of mine does have issues for fingering your way
> around (which seems to me it's more of a fingering atop thing, like you
> would have in a keyboard score)
>
> L
>
> On Mon, 21 Feb 2022, 12:32 Valentin Petzel, <valentin@petzel.at> wrote:
>
>> Hello Luca,
>>
>> changing the X-parent to the NoteHead would mean that we are aligning the
>> Fingering horizontally wrt. the NoteHead instead of the whole NoteColumn.
>> This
>> would then mean that if for example due to some chord some note heads are
>> on
>> the other side of the Stem the alignment of something like <c d g>-1-2-3
>> would
>> change (disregarding that it wouldn’t even be clear what note head to
>> use).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Valentin
>>
>> Am Montag, 21. Februar 2022, 09:19:30 CET schrieb Luca Fascione:
>> > Hi Thomas,
>> > thanks for your comment, this helps me refine my understanding of
>> what's
>> > going on.
>> >
>> > At the same time, while I do see that for other articulations (fermata,
>> > appoggiato) this parenting scheme works very well,
>> > I remain wondering whether for the style of layout of the fingering
>> > indications that I am after, the appropriate thing to do could be to
>> change
>> > the parenting altogether.
>> >
>> > If we look at chord for a second, I see the <one-note-chord> thing as a
>> > trick because to me even for proper chords the whole FingeringColumn
>> idea
>> > is also a weird concept: imagine you're in say C major, and you're
>> laying
>> > out fingering on the left of a chord like Fm <f aes c'>: I'm very
>> unclear
>> > whether the most readable solution is to have the fingerings stacked
>> one
>> > atop each other in a column (thereby more distant from f and c because
>> of
>> > the intervening flat on the aes) or if instead the fingerings on f and
>> c
>> > should be set tighter to their corresponding note heads and just the
>> aes
>> > fingering be displaced left horizontally, to allow for the flat. I
>> would
>> > like to experiment with various possibilities there, visually. I
>> suppose
>> > you could still displace horizontally inside the column, and then push
>> it
>> > all inwards closer to the chord even if the bboxes will overlap a
>> bit... I
>> > anticipate issues such as making sure the fingering for c' doesn't
>> > interfer with the ascender on the flat glyph, also.
>> >
>> > Which brings me to a question: what consequence would it have to
>> replace
>> > the X-parent and Y-parent of the fingering to be the NoteHead instead?
>> > (I guess there will be a need to deal with the accidentals at a
>> minimum)
>> > And also: how would I go at discovering these consequences without
>> using
>> > too much of you guys' time?
>> >
>> > Thanks again,
>> > Luca
>> >
>> > On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 1:22 AM Thomas Morley <thomasmorley65@gmail.com>
>>
>> >
>> > wrote:
>> > > Am So., 20. Feb. 2022 um 22:41 Uhr schrieb Luca Fascione <
>> > >
>> > > l.fascione@gmail.com>:
>> > > >  a) I'm looking for a way to get the fingerings where I want them
>> > > >  without
>> > > >
>> > > > using one-note-chord tricks
>> > >
>> > > Well, for Fingerings not in chord, like b-1 or <b dis'>-2-1 X-parent
>> > > is NoteColumn _not_ NoteHead, Y-parent  is VerticalAxisGroup.
>> > > There is no direct way from NoteHead to Fingering and vice versa.
>> > >
>> > > Thus putting Fingering in-chord is unavoidable, imho, even for single
>> > > notes.
>> > > It is _not_ a trick, but a requirement.
>> > >
>> > > Furthermore, you say you set music for classical guitar, then chords
>> > > will happen anyway, although not in your example.
>> > > Please note, as soon as more than one in-chord Fingering is present a
>> > > FingeringColumn is created. Which will make things even more
>> > > complicated.
>> > > See
>> > > https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/issues/6125
>> > > https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/merge_requests/732
>> > >
>> > > Sorry to be of not more help,
>> > >
>> > >   Harm
>>
>>